Fine Furniture w/ Pocket Screws (?)

[Joe Lyddon]

I just got this in an email from Pop.WW'g...

popularwoodworking.com/article/i_can_do_that_simplified_stickley_bookcase

Looks good to me... ;D

You?

[beagles]

I guess it depends on your definition of fine furniture. I figure that has two defining aspects: Artistic presentation... and longevity. Ikea may be attractive and pleasing. Do not expect to hand it down to your children -- much less your grandchildren.

My grandchildren might get my cabinetmaker's work bench. It is surely not fine furniture.

So, if it has artistic merit (in the eye of the beholder)... and it will last, I guess it is fine furniture.

With that said, the pocket hole joinery is suspect. Much depends on execution of the joint.

But a routed mortise with polyurethane glue is certainly a productive, efficient joint not possible 100 years ago. I would claim that is certainly worthy of fine furniture.

[Joe Lyddon]

I just Glen Huey's words calling it a "fine bookcase"... then I noticed that he's using Pocket screw joinery... I guess he likes it...

"If you’ve perused the pages of our sister publication, Woodworking Magazine, you might have seen this piece in the Spring 2005 issue. We dug through the archives to find a fine bookcase, then did a bit of construction modification to allow the design to better fit the “I Can Do That” column. And that’s something you should be on the lookout for as you read woodworking articles or skim the pages of your favorite catalogs. Find a piece you like and see what changes can be made to match the construction to your skill set and tools."

If the joints were glued & screwed, I think they would last a long time.

Looks like a nice lil bookcase too! ;D

[sachbvn]

I think that PS can easily be considered "fine furniture"

To me it's like.... if someone uses a DT jig for the drawers of a desk, instead of hand cutting them.... is it still "fine furniture" ? If it is - where do we draw the line that it ISN'T fine furniture?

I think PS with glued joints will last a very long time.

Zac

[sawduster]

While I might consider dados to house the ends of the shelves with glue and pocket screws instead of housing the shelves in sliding dovetails to be a nearly suitable substitution, even pocket scews and glue alone would not suffice in my book. The angle of the screws through the bottom of the shelves and into the sides does not, IMO, provide sufficient shear support for the shelves. Putting the screws in through the top of the shelves at a downward angle would provide additional shear support, but would then need to concealed.

With all of the alternative methods available for cutting dados and grooves, I consider them to be a simple enough joint for even the newest of amateurs. While I am all in favor of the "I Can Do That" regular column in PW, I think that good sturdy joinery techniques should be encouraged right from the start.

[Leo Voisine]

I guess it really comes down to:

Define --- Fine Furniture !!

I would love to see a documented defination of Fine Furniture.

We have in the last years tried to express all our opinions as to what Fine Furniture really is - but I have yet to see any substantial document with a defination.

Only then -- could a bias be made about pocket screws.

Until then -- it is purely - opinion -

Pocket screws - sure - in a given application - I think they are fine. To me - the application is one where I could not find a better solution.

[rhull]

Purely IMO...

While one can - without a doubt - make fine LOOKING furniture using pocket screw joinery, I would not consider it fine furniture.

By the same token, if I went to a store advertising "fine furniture" and the stuff was assembled with pocket screws, I'd laugh my way right out of the store.

[cabinetman]

Here's my opinion again. Pocket screws = junk joinery. It's not snobbery, it woodworking. I just take the time to do the joinery appropriate for the piece. Actually I prefer no mechanical fasteners. How fast and easy does it have to be. What ever happened to craftsmanship. It can only be learned through experience.

Just think...maybe soon there will be a faster, easier, and junkier form of fastening available other than pocket screws.

[sachbvn]

Cabinet man - you'll get no arguments out of me that a piece will all wooden joinery is..... shall I say.... "superior" to pocket screws? BUT - I still don't see what makes pocket screws junk. They serve their purpose.... name another method that is accomplished as quickly and easily with the same, or better results?

With glue - they form quite a strong joint....now - stronger than M&T or dados? No, of course not - but.... it's kind of like apples and oranges, IMO.

We seem to take on the idea that woodworkers of years and years ago would never have been caught dead using PS or any metal fasteners.... uh.... I think it's fair to consider that metal fasteners, if available at all, were so expensive, they really couldn't afford to.

"Whatever happened to craftsmanship" - well, if I had a piece in front of me that had been made by hand, all wooden joinery, wonderfully sanded, scraped, finished, etc..... I would give it the due respect it deserves.

In regards to the specific project listed above - I wasn't really considering THAT project when talking about pocket screws - just referring to using them in general. I would never use PS to attach something weight bearing like a shelf, to the side of a case piece.


Zac

[wisardd1]

Dec 17, 2009 7:28:18 GMT -6 sachbvn said:

I think that PS can easily be considered "fine furniture"

To me it's like.... if someone uses a DT jig for the drawers of a desk, instead of hand cutting them.... is it still "fine furniture" ? If it is - where do we draw the line that it ISN'T fine furniture?

I think PS with glued joints will last a very long time.

Zac

I still like Tim's argument the best, "wood moves". Pieces screwed together over time become loose long before other forms of joinery. I trip to a local antique store of a visit to a long ago stored piece of furniture will no doubt show that.

dale

[Ruffnek]

I still like Tim's argument the best, "wood moves". Pieces screwed together over time become loose long before other forms of joinery. I trip to a local antique store of a visit to a long ago stored piece of furniture will no doubt show that.


I'm not going to argue that PS joinery constitutes fine furniture but I will argue the statement that "Pieces screwed together over time become loose long before other forms of joinery."

What do you substantiate that statement with other than Tim's assertion that "wood moves." Do you have any document evidence to support it or is that just supposition?

Of course wood moves and every cross-grain joint like M&T, dowels, dovetails, etc will eventually become loose from that movement. Any trip to an antique store will prove it.

I do not consider PS joinery as "junk joinery." That's an insult to the thousands of real cabinetmakers around the country who build primarily kitchen cabinets for a living and use PS joinery. They use it because it is virtually impossible to make a living building cabinets using "traditional" joinery techniques with no mechanical fasteners. I would hazard a guess that less than 1% of the buying public will pay for that type of construction and the time involved in it.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion but I would like to hear a factual argument to support such statements, especially since we have people on this board that make their living using PS joinery techniques.

It's easy to make broad statements that sound good to the general forum membership but let's also read or look at some evidence to substantiate those statements.

I'm not from Missouri but sometimes, their approach is the best one...show me.

[Stretch]

First off, I don't use pocket screws very often. In fact I can remember only using them twice. I don't use them as a matter of personal preference. I just don't really like them too much. That being said I don't have a problem using them where it is suitable. All they are is a clamp. When you use pocket screws and glue on a butt joint, you're just relying on the screws to provide clamping action until the glue dries. Then if you want you can remove the screws. So, if you want to use pocket screws in a place where it is suitable to use a simple butt joint, there is nothing wrong with that. I will point out that a unreinforced butt joint using PVA glue is actually a fairly strong joint. I have put my weight on one in a shearing action and it held and I walk around most days at 235 lbs. So if a simple butt joint is strong enough for what you want to do, and you want to clamp it with pocket screws, go for it. They do not, however, replace traditional joinery techniques where they are in fact needed. On the piece above, they may suffice to hold the shelf, because it is so narrow that you can't stack if with a ton of books. But say some inexperienced woodworker wanted to modify the plan and make the shelves wider. Then you start having the potential for failure. As Jerry said, there are easy ways to cut dadoes, so there is no reason not to use a dado in this application.

Oh, and about fine furniture, I think Beagles hit it on the head. I say that fine furniture has to be both beautiful and durable. The eye can tell if something is beautiful, but only time can say if something is durable. That is why we stick with time tested methods, because we know that they will be durable.

[cabinetman]

Dec 17, 2009 20:37:23 GMT -6 Ruffnek said:

I do not consider PS joinery as "junk joinery." That's an insult to the thousands of real cabinetmakers around the country who build primarily kitchen cabinets for a living and use PS joinery. They use it because it is virtually impossible to make a living building cabinets using "traditional" joinery techniques with no mechanical fasteners. I would hazard a guess that less than 1% of the buying public will pay for that type of construction and the time involved in it.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion but I would like to hear a factual argument to support such statements, especially since we have people on this board that make their living using PS joinery techniques.

It's easy to make broad statements that sound good to the general forum membership but let's also read or look at some evidence to substantiate those statements.

I'm not from Missouri but sometimes, their approach is the best one...show me.

You can consider PS joinery anything you want. And to the so called thousands of "real" cabinetmakers, that's too bad if they take it as an insult. A "real" cabinetmaker like myself and several others that I'm personally friendly with don't use PS joinery on sheet goods fabrication, as we have been in the trade before PS's and biscuits. I never said I don't use mechanical fasteners, I said I prefer not to use them.

Once set up for dadoes and rabbets, machining for the joinery is very fast and accurate. Where necessary brad nails or staples are used. I don't make broad statements. Mine are pretty specific.

If there are people on this board that make a living with PS's that's their choice. To prove anything to you to substantiate my opinion is inconsequential.

[sachbvn]

Just curious - cabinetman - how do you attach face frames to a case piece?


Zac

[wisardd1]

My response is anecdotal

[Leo Voisine]

I didn't think this discussion of the use of pocket screws was an attack on anybodies skill, or lack thereof.

I should not be a discussion as to "so called" or "real" woodworkers. That kind of statement only serves to ruffle feathers.

Pocket screws are a good method of fastening two pieces of wood together.

Doing an entire amoire (sp) using only pocket screws would be questionable at best.

Building a cabinet for a kitchen - is not - in my opinion fine woodworking - and pocket screws could easily find a reason to be used there.

The general - opinion - is that pocket screws have no place in "fine woodworking" --- however -- "fine woodworking" is not defined.

There needs to be a separation in our minds about "entirely" built with PS - OR - is there a place, for them at all.

For some that are skilled - PS is a perceived attack on their level of skill or ability. It's not an attack.

Personally - I believe a dado or a Mortise and tenon joint is Superior, and would be my first choice. I am not a believer of having any fasteners "supporting" any weight.

However - PS - do have a reasonable place in the world.

So far - I have found 1 or 2 places where they really did the trick nicely. And it ws most certainly not on "fine furniture"

To be used in replacement of a dado, or a M&T joint - maybe not - but they do have their place.

[Ruffnek]

Leo,

For those here who remember the troll Woodshoper from the other forum, they might also recall one of the early exchanges he had with Marc over the quality of his Dremel scroll saw versus a Ryobi.

Woodshoper stated that the Dremel was a vastly superior tool to the Ryobi but he offered no supporting facts to support his statement. Marc called him on it and challenged him to provide valid reasons as to why the Dremel was "vastly superior." needless to say, Woodshoper could offer no facts to support his opinion.

The same is true of the reverse, IMHO. If you consider biscuits or pocket screws to be "junk joinery", or if you state that pocket screw joinery will prematurely fail, then why not offer some data to support that opinion.

Unsubstantiated opinions that are presented as fact are what has led to much of the misinformation that is present on woodworking forums.

[dcarter636]

My own practical experience leads me to agree that no amount of hardware can replace decent joinery and pocket screws do have a place in sound furniture construction.

We had a maple dining set that was handed down to us and used throughout our child rearing years; the top is attached with pocket screws and remains sound after 50+ years of intense use. The application was appropriate; all shear, little tension, no flexing or side loads. Similar to attaching unstressed face frames.
However we also have a lot of rickety antiques that will never be sound again because screws were used to augment sloppy/loose leg joinery and flexing screws just plain wear out their holes.

Tim's example is based on sound engineering; the same issue exists in the design of high temperature hydraulic hardware such as steam valves where steel and bronze components expand and contract different amounts during temperature cycling. The stress analysis of the elastic strains on the screw threads and contact bearing area under the screw heads is serious stuff, lives depend on it. Wood and steel respond differently to changes in moisture and the fibers of the wood threads and under the screw head are repetitively stressed same as on those steam valves. Lives aren't at stake but the life of a screwed joint is certainly shortened by repetitive strain.

A wood on wood joint has the advantage of greater elasticity that the metal screws lack. I'm not saying the metal screws will break because they lack elasticity but that the wood will fail because it is doing all the stretching while the metal just sits there and watches.

This is going to turn into a treatise that will put most normal folks to sleep so let me summarize that in glued wood joints both pieces share in the stretching and flexing about equally and will generally will last longer while screwed joints will come loose sooner because all the stretching or flexing is done in the wood alone. If the glued joinery is good then the screws are unnecessary and if the joinery is poor the screws will eventually cause the wood to fail.

[cabinetman]

Dec 20, 2009 18:37:35 GMT -6 Ruffnek said:

Leo,

For those here who remember the troll Woodshoper from the other forum, they might also recall one of the early exchanges he had with Marc over the quality of his Dremel scroll saw versus a Ryobi.

Woodshoper stated that the Dremel was a vastly superior tool to the Ryobi but he offered no supporting facts to support his statement. Marc called him on it and challenged him to provide valid reasons as to why the Dremel was "vastly superior." needless to say, Woodshoper could offer no facts to support his opinion.

The same is true of the reverse, IMHO. If you consider biscuits or pocket screws to be "junk joinery", or if you state that pocket screw joinery will prematurely fail, then why not offer some data to support that opinion.

Unsubstantiated opinions that are presented as fact are what has led to much of the misinformation that is present on woodworking forums.

Still up to your old word games. This thread asks for opinions. Since when does an opinion represent misinformation?

Your post shows your intention to infer trolling. What you are doing is trolling. You want to start an argument. Your use of words such as "real cabinetmakers" shows you've never been to a "real" cabinet shop, or have any idea what "real cabinetmakers" use as methods for custom work.

TJ should put a stop to your nonsense. It shows a lack of respect.

As I stated, I've tried both biscuits and pocket screws. In my experience with those methods I'll just list for the benefit of others my perceptions.

A pocket screw does not exert inline fastening forces.

Using pocket screws can split one or both members of the connection.

It takes longer to set up for and drill pocket holes than it does for machining rabbets and dadoes.

Pocket screws offer only a point of connection if they successfully maintain their fastening ability.

I find the resultant "pocket" objectionable. My work is inspected in the shop before completion by the client. That client could be the ultimate user, designer, or architect. Seeing that form of joinery appears to be subpar and likened to KD, or RTA type casework. When top dollar is paid for custom work, the work should be and appear custom no matter where it's viewed.

During assembly the casework is moved many times and damage in handling can be a problem if the joinery faults. Cabinets have to sustain further movements when loaded on a delivery truck, transported to the site, unloaded, and finally maneuvered to their installed positions.

If the cabinets weren't checked out in the shop by the end user, they are obvious once on the jobsite. They should be and appear to be fabricated with the care and flair due custom work. Having pocket holes and even the plugs to me aren't what I consider being "custom work".

It's also my opinion that an appropriate, well fitted wood to wood glued joint is superior to any mechanical fastener.

[Joe Lyddon]

Dec 21, 2009 10:39:56 GMT -6 cabinetman said:

A pocket screw does not exert inline fastening forces.

Using pocket screws can split one or both members of the connection.

It takes longer to set up for and drill pocket holes than it does for machining rabbets and dadoes.

Pocket screws offer only a point of connection if they successfully maintain their fastening ability.

No need to get ruffled... ;D ;D

Pocket screws are generally Glued and Screwed every 6"-8" apart... On face frame rails, 1" to 1-1/2" apart with glue.

Setup: Clamp jig to bench, roughly mark where you want them on ONE edge, insert into jig, & drill... Much faster than setting up a dado set, position, depth, Height, & test cutting & fine tune.

Several points of contact add up to solid connection.

If the drill Stop is positioned properly and the correct type of screw is selected, I have never seen a piece split.

The main problem, as I see it, is to NOT over tighten the screws to possibly strip the threads... solved by having the clutch properly adjusted on the screw-drill.

It has it's place in all woodworking... Shines on Face Frames.

IMHO...