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Post by sachbvn on Dec 21, 2009 11:54:20 GMT -6
Joe - you are correct. I, by no means, have bookoo experience in the matter - but I've never had a pocket screw split a piece of wood unless it was something that I, personally, did wrong. Honestly - I find it hard to believe that it would split a piece of wood if the proper hole was drilled and the screw was eased into place with the correct torque - but - many others have far more experience with them than I, so I will leave it to them to lay claim to it happening or not.
Zac
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Beamer
Forum Management 
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Post by Beamer on Dec 21, 2009 19:24:37 GMT -6
I'd just like to say that regardless of which side of this issue you land on, let's all try and keep our cools and remain open to the idea that people do disagree. I haven't seen a reason for any action, yet, but let's try to stick to the topic at hand without getting too riled up. We all have our views - some justified, others not. If you can't be civil, consider leaving it out of your posts  |
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rrich
WoW Member
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Post by rrich on Dec 21, 2009 20:17:51 GMT -6
LOL!!!
I just checked the computer desk that I'm sitting at and found that I used a few pocket screws. The computer desk is solid wood, (except for the drawer boxes) made in my shop, mostly M&T joinery and fumed oak with a poly finish.
Is is fine furniture? Well it IS a COMPUTER DESK. How could anyone call a COMPUTER DESK fine furniture? And Gadzooks! The top is attached with METAL figure "8"s. Nice yes, fine furniture no.
So what is fine furniture?
Let's start from the outside and work in.
Fully Functional Piece
A Waxed Oil finish
No Stain
Solid Wood
Traditional Joinery
Stable construction with a minimum of metal fasteners.
Constructed with quality workmanship.
Can anyone think of anything else?
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sawduster
Moderator 
The Motley Crew
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Post by sawduster on Dec 22, 2009 9:39:59 GMT -6
There-in lies the biggest problem, trying to come up with a universal description of "fine furniture". Two items in that list would likely evoke pretty quick objection, the "wax and oil finish" and the "no stain". Some might insist that the finish be french polish, while others might say that the wood needs the added protection of a polyurethane varnish. There are also those folks out there who insist that stain or dye be used to obtain something of a homogeneous color to the piece. I have neither a pocket screw jig nor a biscuit cutter and have never used either of those in any piece I have made. I use a minimum of metal fasteners. I have used a brad nailer to tack a piece of molding in place on some hardwood plywood pieces and have found that a screw is about the best way of attaching the "buttons" I use for attaching table tops to aprons. The buttons are still glued to the bottom of the top, but most times clamping them while the glue sets is difficult at best. (I do leave the screws in after the glue dries.  ) I hated the time I had to spend going back and filling the telltale holes made by the brads being driven to hold the molding in place while the glue dried. Hard-fast rules about anything in wood working are few and far between. I know what I would or would not do, but to limit others by my own constraints is not my wont. What I do have issue with is not pushing the envelope, not expanding one's own arsenal. That being said, I do have a problem with the redesign of the book case referenced in the original post. Using pocket screws to hold the shelves in place, IMO turns that piece into something little more than Wallyworld KD stuff from the PRC. |
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Post by deepsplinter on Dec 22, 2009 10:39:02 GMT -6
"Hard-fast rules about anything in wood working are few and far between. I know what I would or would not do, but to limit others by my own constraints is not my want."
That's it, in a nutshell.
Well put, Jerry
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Post by dcarter636 on Dec 22, 2009 10:57:59 GMT -6
When LOML and I look to buy fine furniture, that stuff that we must save up for, that causes your hand to tremble when you write the check, we expect:
Aesthetically pleasing functional design.
Construction with durable materials and joinery.
A high quality of workmanship suggesting perfection.
Uniform, flawless, and appropriate finish.
Those qualities are the source of most of the "How do I do this" or "How did I go wrong" questions that we share and discuss. So perhaps there is a fairly universal set of generalized expectations for "fine" furniture.
I think fine furniture can also include well executed laminations, veneers on stable substrates, opaque finishes (paint).
Too often we get into what fine isn't so my hat's off to Rich for steering this toward positive values.
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Post by sachbvn on Dec 22, 2009 16:41:20 GMT -6
There-in lies the biggest problem, trying to come up with a universal description of "fine furniture". Two items in that list would likely evoke pretty quick objection, the "wax and oil finish" and the "no stain". Some might insist that the finish be french polish, while others might say that the wood needs the added protection of a polyurethane varnish. There are also those folks out there who insist that stain or dye be used to obtain something of a homogeneous color to the piece. I have neither a pocket screw jig nor a biscuit cutter and have never used either of those in any piece I have made. I use a minimum of metal fasteners. I have used a brad nailer to tack a piece of molding in place on some hardwood plywood pieces and have found that a screw is about the best way of attaching the "buttons" I use for attaching table tops to aprons. The buttons are still glued to the bottom of the top, but most times clamping them while the glue sets is difficult at best. (I do leave the screws in after the glue dries. ) I hated the time I had to spend going back and filling the telltale holes made by the brads being driven to hold the molding in place while the glue dried. Hard-fast rules about anything in wood working are few and far between. I know what I would or would not do, but to limit others by my own constraints is not my wont. What I do have issue with is not pushing the envelope, not expanding one's own arsenal. That being said, I do have a problem with the redesign of the book case referenced in the original post. Using pocket screws to hold the shelves in place, IMO turns that piece into something little more than Wallyworld KD stuff from the PRC. Well put Jerry, in regards to the original piece in question - yes, using PS to hold shelves in place is a bad idea.... Dados would be SOOO much better, and not really that complicated. Zac |
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Post by Leo Voisine on Dec 23, 2009 16:43:01 GMT -6
There-in lies the biggest problem, trying to come up with a universal description of "fine furniture". Two items in that list would likely evoke pretty quick objection, the "wax and oil finish" and the "no stain". Some might insist that the finish be french polish, while others might say that the wood needs the added protection of a polyurethane varnish. There are also those folks out there who insist that stain or dye be used to obtain something of a homogeneous color to the piece. I have neither a pocket screw jig nor a biscuit cutter and have never used either of those in any piece I have made. I use a minimum of metal fasteners. I have used a brad nailer to tack a piece of molding in place on some hardwood plywood pieces and have found that a screw is about the best way of attaching the "buttons" I use for attaching table tops to aprons. The buttons are still glued to the bottom of the top, but most times clamping them while the glue sets is difficult at best. (I do leave the screws in after the glue dries. ) I hated the time I had to spend going back and filling the telltale holes made by the brads being driven to hold the molding in place while the glue dried. Hard-fast rules about anything in wood working are few and far between. I know what I would or would not do, but to limit others by my own constraints is not my wont. What I do have issue with is not pushing the envelope, not expanding one's own arsenal. That being said, I do have a problem with the redesign of the book case referenced in the original post. Using pocket screws to hold the shelves in place, IMO turns that piece into something little more than Wallyworld KD stuff from the PRC. Jerry I agree with you - there are no defined rules, and neither should there be. I actually just looked at he Popular Woodworking link for the first time. "It 'looks' nice! However, I "am" a firm believer in that nothing should be supported by fasteners alone. It is "engineering" unstable! In any engineering course of study - the study of "strength of materials", is a study in such things as fastners and load distribution. Heck, even in my studies in Mass. building codes we covered that stuff. The force of gravity on the shelves is directly supported by the fasteners - the pocket screws. That in itself is a direct violation of a stable joint. Sure - there is "some" bearing support due to the "tightness" of the screw, but as Tim pointed out - the wood will shrink, and that bearing surface will loose its grip, thereby loosing the bearing support, again, transfering support directly ONTO, the screws. A dado, on the other hand - moves the support into the upright side, thereby transferring the forces due to gravity directly through the side and directly to the floor. Think of how a door or window is framed in a house. There are jack studs under the header and directly onto the sill plate. That jack stud is what is supporting the header - which in turn supports the roof. At no point - do the nails have any supporting value. The shelf is similar, as placed into a dado - the weight distribution is changed. As to the bookcase redesign. It is listed as an "I can do this" beginner project. It pushes the pocket screw into a place where it should not be encouraged. It would not be my choice to do and it would not be my choice to show someone how to build a bookcase - even if it were their first attempt. Unfortunately - this does, make a "nice" project, something of a wallyworld piece.  I will say though - pocket screws do have their place and are a good choice - in the right application. |
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Post by beagles on Dec 23, 2009 17:26:36 GMT -6
One consideration related to the idea of "I can do that..."
If projects are (or appear to be) sufficiently simple that a broad spectrum of "weekend woodworkers" might attempt them, then the project will have served to get some of them further along their experience curve
If every project required fine furniture skills, what would most people, even us, attempt?
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Post by Leo Voisine on Dec 23, 2009 17:42:49 GMT -6
One consideration related to the idea of "I can do that..." If projects are (or appear to be) sufficiently simple that a broad spectrum of "weekend woodworkers" might attempt them, then the project will have served to get some of them further along their experience curve If every project required fine furniture skills, what would most people, even us, attempt? Jim, It's a good point - a very good point. My first bookcase - I put cleats under the shelves. Really much stronger than the pocket screws, but at the same time very easy. I still have that bookcase - and use it after almost 30 years. In my second bookcase I used dados. Definately, still a beginner - and well within the reach of a beginner. My fear, in the pocket screw approach is that 1) The builder would go out and buy the full kreg system, instead of, say a low end router. (I have the cheapest part of the kreg system @ about $20) 2) From the start - the beginner would learn a not so great system - and think it's the way to go - instead of learning about what a simple joint is. It's really a catch 22. We want to encourage woodworking, but we still want to encourage, the woodworking part of woodworking. |
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) I hated the time I had to spend going back and filling the telltale holes made by the brads being driven to hold the molding in place while the glue dried. 
