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Post by Jim Brown on Nov 22, 2009 13:00:37 GMT -6
The new house saga continues. The water in the upstairs bathroom will run for a few seconds and then just shut down ... until you come downstairs and turn the water off and on at the kitchen sink ... *then* you can go upstairs and finish your shower.
The upstairs is an addition, if that makes any difference. I don't know anything about plumbing and will probably end up hiring somebody if it's at all complicated to fix, but I'd like to know what I'm getting into. Any thoughts / advice much appreciated.
Jim B.
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Post by Leo Voisine on Nov 22, 2009 13:06:11 GMT -6
When you say that you go downstairs and shut the water "off" and then on.
What are you shutting off? The main water coming into the house?
Sounds like there should be to the story.
Do you have city water or a well?
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Joe Lyddon
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Post by Joe Lyddon on Nov 22, 2009 13:10:50 GMT -6
That's weird! Do you ever hear air popping out of the faucets? ... just thinking if a bunch of air is getting in there somehow... (  ) Maybe there is a bigger valve being opened on the same 'run' before it gets to upstairs... taking all the water? The whole problem sounds very strange to me... I'd like to know what the cause is! |
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Post by TDHofstetter on Nov 22, 2009 13:11:30 GMT -6
This one sounds BIZARRE. Not necessarily awful to fix, but it may take a little time to figure out what's happening. The kitchen sink shouldn't have anything at all to do with a shower upstairs unless there's something we ain't been told yet...
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Post by Jim Brown on Nov 22, 2009 14:20:25 GMT -6
Sorry I misspoke. If we turn the kitchen faucet on and then off, the water upstairs will begin to flow again. We have well water, and no other water is running during this process.
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Joe Lyddon
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Post by Joe Lyddon on Nov 22, 2009 14:38:00 GMT -6
Oh, then you have a pump in the circuit...
...pumping directly to the house or to a holding tank then to the house??
What happens to the Upstairs water if you turn the kitchen faucet on as the other is also flowing?
Once the upstairs is running (been to the kitchen), will it continue to run... forever?
Have you experimented turning the upstairs off, after a long running session, then turning it on again to see how long it takes before it needs the kitchen thing again?
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Post by bmorto on Nov 22, 2009 14:49:46 GMT -6
The water pump electric motor has a switch that reacts to low system pressure. The switch turns on and off a lot. The points on the switch may not be making good contact. That pressure switch is the first place I would look for problems. My pump switch had ants in it at one time and caused it to work erratically. While you are solving this problem you may want to make sure your surge tank pressure is at an acceptable level.
Bmorto
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Post by TDHofstetter on Nov 22, 2009 14:59:21 GMT -6
I think I know what's happening.
I think the pump isn't turning on until the pressure is REALLY LOW - too low to push water all the way up to the shower head upstairs. So... the pressure drops off as the tank is depleted, then when the water stops flowing in the shower the system just sits there until the pump is triggered again by the kitchen faucet... which is low enough that water will flow out of it until the tank pressure drops below the trigger threshold again. That fires the pump, which pressurizes the tank to full pressure again, which delivers water to the shower head upstairs till the pressure falls too low again.
Jim, go look at the pressure valve on the water tank (probably in the basement). Watch it while somebody runs water in the kitchen - I want you to note the pressure readings (1) when the pump turns on and (2) when the pump turns back off again. If I'm right, the pressure reading will be... lessee...
1psi = 2.31 feet of column, and the upstairs shower head is going to be between 15 and 24 feet above the gauge, so when the pump turns on the pressure reading will have been between about 7psi and 10psi. MUCH too low - it should run somewhere around 45 at turn-on to about 60 at turn-off.
Betcha' there's not any ton of water at the kitchen sink, either, is there? Until the pump kicks in again?
Methinks it's time to change out the pressure switch - they can usually be adjusted, but that's a LONG way out of adjustment. Let's start with a new one, and a new pressure gauge in the bargain. They're both things you can easily change out after the power to the pump is turned off and all the pressure bled out. If it's a surface pump, you may need to reprime it after you're done.
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Post by Jim Brown on Nov 22, 2009 15:10:19 GMT -6
The kid says the pressure drops again after a while (she takes a long shower), low enough that it switches from shower to tub. That would, I assume, corroborate what Tim is saying.
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Post by Jim Brown on Nov 22, 2009 15:31:45 GMT -6
Gauge was sitting at 30 psi when I went down there. Dropped quickly down to 10, when the pump kicked on, and it went up to 50, when the pump shut off.
Not good, right?
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Post by Leo Voisine on Nov 22, 2009 15:43:04 GMT -6
It does sound like the pressure switch.
However, the accumulator tank may be saturated. By that I mean there may be too much water in it and not enough of an air cushion above the water in the tank. This will also cause your pump to cycle on and off too frequently. It will also cause your faucet pressure to fluctuate as the pump turns on and off - that is not good for the pump.
Both things are easy to fix.
Pressure switch is an off the shelf item at borg or at a plumbing store.
Pressure should be between 30-50 pounds.
If you pressure is dropping below 30 PSI the pressure switch is definitely pad.
For the other thing - you need to drain the water tank - after you replace the pressure switch, then close the drain valve and turn on the pump and let it cycle one time. That should be about it. Sometimes you need to recharge with compressed air. A bicycle tire air pump can do it easily. There should be instructions right on the water tank.
In fact - the more I think about it - the more I think the water tank needs to be recharged - even more so that the pressure switch. Your house is likely working on pump pressure alone.
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Post by bmorto on Nov 22, 2009 15:51:51 GMT -6
Your water heater must be full of water at all times if the heater is able to generate heat. Remember to turn off the heat source for your water heating tank if you empty the water system of water.
bmorto
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Post by TDHofstetter on Nov 22, 2009 16:08:23 GMT -6
Gauge was sitting at 30 psi when I went down there. Dropped quickly down to 10, when the pump kicked on, and it went up to 50, when the pump shut off. Not good, right? Not good at all (in terms of stuff workin'), but very very good in terms of fixability. The switch definitely needs replacing - that's an easy buy & an easy job. The tank... how large is it? How long did it take the pump to pressurize it from 10 to 50? It may need some recharging, or maybe not, depending on how big it is & how long it took to recharge. |
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Post by Jim Brown on Nov 22, 2009 16:17:55 GMT -6
The tank's the blue thing, right? I'm going to guess 35 gallons, but I'm not much at guessing volumes and I didn't see any markings. Took less than a minute or so to work its way up to 50.
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Joe Lyddon
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Post by Joe Lyddon on Nov 22, 2009 16:23:04 GMT -6
Sounds like we're zeroing in on the problem / solution!  Very good... and Very Interesting... |
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Post by bmorto on Nov 22, 2009 16:50:19 GMT -6
The tank you have found is designed to keep the pressure in the water system at a more constant level and most importantly keep the water pump motor from turning on and off for very short periods of time. The turning on and off repeatedly can ruin the electric motor and can cost a lot more in electricity because of the motor starting loads.
The blue tank likely has a Schrader valve on the top that looks like what you fill a bicycle inner tube with. That valve is connected to a rubber bladder inside the blue tank. So you have compressed air inside the bladder and water on the other side of the bladder. When the water pump runs it pumps water into the tank and compresses the trapped air. The compressed air keeps the water pressure at the taps at a more constant pressure for a much longer time because the air expands as the water is consumed. The air pressure in the tank must be in a very specific range that is matched to the on and off setting of the pump pressure switch. When the settings are correct you will probably not know when the water pump turns on and off.
I will run out and take a couple of photos of my tank
bmorto
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Post by TDHofstetter on Nov 22, 2009 17:47:03 GMT -6
Yep, the tank's the blue thing... and if it's ANYTHING LIKE 35 gallons a one-minute cycle time is MUCH too fast - especially when we're pressurizing from 10psi to 50psi. The tank needs recharging, too, besides the pressure switch needing replacement.
The tank can be recharged very easily - as has been said, with a bicycle pump or nearly any kind of compressor. It should have a label with recharging information on it - most I've seen need for all the water pressure to be gone, then the tank pressurized with air to something between about 15psi and 35psi, then the water pressure brought up again. Verify the label on your tank to be sure how to do it... or if it's a Well-X-Trol tank, they've got online instructions.
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Post by bmorto on Nov 22, 2009 17:48:58 GMT -6
 Air pressure chart for my tank  valve to check and or adjust air pressure |
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Post by Jim Brown on Nov 22, 2009 17:50:13 GMT -6
Yep, there's a label all right. I don't have my compressor here right now, or a bicycle pump for that matter, but I'll figure something out.
My first house had a much smaller tank, and I replaced it once. I remember pumping it up, but I didn't understand what it was for. Thanks, guys, for the education!
I'll report back when the problem's solved.
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Post by Leo Voisine on Nov 22, 2009 18:40:07 GMT -6
Jim -- yer doing great -- I think you have the same tank as mine. Don't worry about shutting off any heat source - that is not a water heater. Sounds you will still need to replace the pressure regulator aslo. Sounds like you are saving the cost of a plumber ;D Congratulations !!!  |
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