Rasps = Cheating?

[admin]

I've been reading on the finer points of woodworking lately, as I'm actually playing around with the idea of some mild luthier work.

It seems that the world of woodworking is somewhat stuck on a topic; rasps. Some folks feel like for cutting dovetails, a rasp to open it up the least bit more is cheating. "Learn to use a handsaw, not a rasp!" is a pretty commonplace statement in a few of the articles in some of my books.

Personally, I think that any tool that makes the job more simple, and allows better product, well, I don't think it's cheating at all. Not all of us are awesome with a handsaw, especially new guys like me. I can cut to a line, but I find it much less 'risky' to cut beside the line and then rasp away to a perfect fit.

What do you guys think? I'm not really grasping the mindset behind them being 'cheating' so if any of you agree with it, feel free to elaborate, as I don't understand it!

[dicklaxt]

get'er done any way you can,use a hammer for the final fit,joints are usually pretty tight

seriously if it works for you ,you are the only one who will really know,your choice,if you are dealing the cards then we play your game.

dick

[TDHofstetter]

The term "cheating" only applies when there are hard-and-fast rules by which to play and you circumvent the rules.

When you're bustin' loose a 1" bolt with a breakover bar & you stick a pipe over the handle for more leverage, that's a "cheater bar"... and it's "cheating"... but it's totally accepted practice & there's nothing wrong with it... AND IT WORKS.

When you're sculpting wood with a chainsaw, is it cheating? In the minds of some observers, it is, but in the minds of other observers it's common accepted practice.

If you're engaged in a highly specific activity with established rules, as in competition (say a SoapBox Derby competition) and you break one of the established rules, you're cheating.

What are the established rules? Established by whom? Does it work? Is it efficient? Is it practical? Would your ancestors do it? Your descendants?

Unless there are established, clear rules, you can train beavers to do the job. If there are no established, universal, clear rules, or IF YOUR MIND says you're cheating, and feels guilty about it, then do something else. Otherwise, the question is moot.

EDIT: I might add here that more Queen Ann legs and scrolled musical-instrument heads & neck transitions have been shaped with rasps than not with rasps.

[sawduster]

The only negative I can come up with for using a rasp to do the final fitting of a dovetail is that it takes a bit more time than it would to use a nice sharp chisel to clean up the saw cuts, which is perfectly acceptable behavior contrary to the yelping of the "Learn to use a handsaw" crowd.

I know a fella who makes premium modern handsaws to sell at very lucrative prices who recommends using a rasp for the final fit for mortise and tenon joints.

One of the things you will come across often in woodworking circles are folks who insist that their way is the only method that is right and proper. The fact is, there are dozens of ways to skin a cat as well as to work wood. You should work hard to obtain as many different methods of doing something as you can so that you are more able to do the job with what tools you have at hand. There are times when you will be surprised by a task that you did not intend to have to do and failed to bring you preferred tools for the task, or maybe the preferred tool is out of service for one reason or another and you need to resort to another tool and method.

[rhull]

Dec 10, 2009 9:24:16 GMT -6 sawduster said:

The only negative I can come up with for using a rasp to do the final fitting of a dovetail is that it takes a bit more time than it would to use a nice sharp chisel to clean up the saw cuts, which is perfectly acceptable behavior contrary to the yelping of the "Learn to use a handsaw" crowd.

My dovetails are rarely "perfect" and I usually use chisels to fit to size. Personally, I have no problem with a rasp, though I'd think you would have to use a fine rasp, lest you lose the crispness of the corner.

Also acceptable to me: using a float instead of a chisel or rasp.

[Ruffnek]

To quote a phrase used frequently by Louis L'Amour in his western novels..."Whatever it takes to get the 'coon" is what I do.

[lexrex]

How many hours will it take you to perfect cutting to the line with a hand saw?

You just answered your own question ;D

[rhull]

Dec 10, 2009 13:48:04 GMT -6 lexrex said:

How many hours will it take you to perfect cutting to the line with a hand saw?

IMHO, if you're not doing these kind of this a LOT, even if you perfect a skill on a project, unless you continue to perform the same operations often, it's hard to maintain the skill.

I implemented handcut dovetails on a project about 3 or 4 years ago. Not having really done them for anything since, you can bet I'm probably back to about where I was in skill level before I did that project.

[imahic]

Whatever it takes to get the job done is what I say. Let the purists do it their way and I will do it my way. I try to always keep my mind open to new ways to do something and if it works I am sure not above changing my way of doing things. I have seen lots of things some of you guys do here that have given me some some good food for thought. I appreciate others posting how they do things.



Mike

[Joe Lyddon]

Sam Maloof used rasps...

... his furn. was Fine...

That would be good enough for me! ;D ;D

[rhull]

Well, I think the difference that some would raise is between using rasps for wood shaping versus "sneaking up" on a dovetail with them. Personally, I don't think I'd use a rasp, but that's MHO. Do whatever works for you.

[Joe Lyddon]

Yeah, if anything, maybe a fine file to sneak up on something... not a Rasp for sure... ;D

[sachbvn]

KP - what kinda woodworking snob authors are you reading from??

Man - do what it takes to get it done, what works for you, what is quick for you, what makes the job easier for you, OR, above all else, what YOU prefer - even if it is none of the above.

If you are hand cutting DTs and use a rasp to clean them up - that, IMO, is totally acceptable. It's like sandpaper..... takes care of booboos and makes things pretty!!

Any rules against sanding? No, because everyone sands, even die-hard hand scraper guys still sand at times - so..... I say - rasp away my friend!


Zac

[lexrex]

I guess the rasps I've used give a rougher cut that what you are talking about, even my finest one. I would waste away wood but when it came to final fit, I would use a super sharp chisel or maybe a very fine file.

[Joe Lyddon]

I'm not saying using a Rasp would be bad... Would be good for clearing out major sections of wood... getting ready for the finer stuff.

I'm saying that using a Rasp to fine tune a joint or something FINE, would like being using a Chain Saw to cut dovetails! ;D

If one wanted to use'em that way, fine... I just can't see anyone doing it... ;D

[Joe Lyddon]

Dec 13, 2009 19:52:52 GMT -6 lexrex said:

I guess the rasps I've used give a rougher cut that what you are talking about, even my finest one. I would waste away wood but when it came to final fit, I would use a super sharp chisel or maybe a very fine file.

A good way to put it...

BUT, if one wanted to use a Rasp no matter what, more power to him! ;D ... it would be ok with me.

[tw]

If you skip the dovetails and use chipboard screws instead it is cheating;)
Any tool or tecnique that gives a high end result without abusing tools nor wasting too much wood is allowed. Including the chainsaw.

I rarely use rasps. A Mora Knife is much faster and more accurate for most jobs.

[Leo Voisine]

Short answer - no not cheating.
Now - the only way I would consider anything to be cheating is this.
YOU said - YOU, are going to do an entire project with nothing but hand tools.  Then you used a drill press - that would be cheating.
YOU said - YOU, were going to do a project and refuse to use a rasp on the project. Then you use a rasp - that would be cheating.
In reality:I don't believe - cheating - is a valid term, in woodworking.

[JBark]

Well, I wasn't going to answer this one but since it is still alive I think I will throw in a few ideas/opinions of mine.

Cheating- Of course this implies breaking accepted rules or standards, which do not exist in woodworking. Personal rules and standards do exist however. Anyone doing a project, wood or otherwise, must decide what standards they will work to. Materials, tools, finish, etc.

Tool Use- I am of the belief that tools are designed for specific tasks and should be used for that task, some divergence allowed. A tool also has a method of use that falls into its design and diverging from that should be avoided, IMO. (I once watched a past employer standing on the top of a ladder trying to drive a roofing nail while at an awkward angle for swinging his hammer. He tried twice to use the side of his hammer and figured that ducking a third nail wasn't a good idea.) Rasps are shaping tools, not joinery tools. A chisel, good and sharp, is the best tool for this job.

I feel that choosing to hand dovetail a project is an indicatiion that one likes traditional methods of construction and really likes handcut dovetails over machine cut dovetails. I could be wrong. In my mind along with appreciating a hand cut dovetail is appreciating how it was done, how it should be done. Isn't impressing yourself, feeling good about your technique a big part of why you build things yourself?

To the point, doesn't the question answer itself?

John

[sawduster]

From a certain perspective, basically every wood working tool that cuts wood is a variation on one or more chisels of one or another orientation and style. A rip saw is simply a bunch of very small square ended chisels placed one behind another (actually it is two sets of such chisels with one set placed a little to the left or right of the other set, but that is splitting hairs). A cross cut saw is simply two sets of alternating skew ended chisels placed one behind another. A plane blade is a very wide chisel held in a base which controls the depth of cut. Rasps (the rougher cutting kind) are round nosed chisels in rows with each row slightly offset from the one in front of it. A fine rasp (or metal file as the case may be) is simply a bunch of wider bladed chisels placed one behind the other, so using a rasp to smooth the floor or sides of a dovetail socket is simply taking the chisel idea a step further. ;D

Actually, for the sake of speeding up the process, a nice sharp paring chisel does get the job done quicker, in my opinion, but using a fine rasp or file does not, I think, make the process a cheat.