Beamer
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Post by Beamer on Dec 8, 2009 19:36:38 GMT -6
I love my kreg jig.
Cabinetman must be older than joe if he was building cabinets before pocket hole joinery. Your brush is too broad.
Walk into any furniture museum housing antiques. I'll betcha you find a few FINE pieces that have some pocket holes in 'em. Corner blocks on a kitchen table, for example.
Junk eh? Heh. Okay. I don't agree at all.
When it works, holds, lasts and saves some time ... how can it be junk?
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Post by Ruffnek on Dec 8, 2009 20:45:32 GMT -6
I have a Biscuit joiner that I have used once... it wasn't what it was cracked up to be... I could probably unload it on eBay. ;D I didn't know Ryobi made a Mini-Biscuit goodie... sounds cool for that application... better than just glue & brads... What does "YMMV" mean? Joe, Ryobi discontinued the mini-biscuit joiner but Craftsman makes one similar to it. That's where I get the biscuits for mine...at Sears. YMMV = Your Mileage May Vary...meaning you may have a different opinion, result, etc. Historical Note: From wiki: Pocket-Hole Joinery, or Pocket-Screw Joinery,involves drilling a hole at an angle into one workpiece, and then joining it to a second workpiece with a self-tapping screw. The technique, in addition to doweling, has its roots in ancient Egypt. Egyptians clamped two workpieces together and bored a hole at an angle from the outside workpiece into the second workpiece. They then inserted a dowel with glue, and cut it off flush with the outermost surface.Hey Joe, did you help invent it? ;D The Kreg jig was invented about 30 years ago by a tool & die maker in Iowa. And now you know the rest of the story.  |
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Post by TDHofstetter on Dec 8, 2009 22:49:39 GMT -6
I have issues with pocket hole joinery, myself. Ya see... wood MOVES. So, when you build those cabinets this winter, assuming face-frame construction, what method will you use to join the face frames? Mortise & tenon, half-laps, stub tenon & groove, loose tenon (pretty quick and strong), dowels, Festool Domino? ;D I'm counting on using stopped half-laps. I'd use M&T but there are a LOT of joints & I don't have a mortiser yet. Everywhere the lap ends won't be visible, they'll be full half-laps. |
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wisardd1
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Post by wisardd1 on Dec 8, 2009 22:50:00 GMT -6
Personally, I still favor Tim's argument, but then again, I usually do!
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Post by deepsplinter on Dec 9, 2009 6:51:36 GMT -6
Tim, I can't see where you're concerned about wood movement on pocket holes, but not worried about it on half lapped joints.
Don't get me wrong here, I'm not trying to start an arguement (especially not with you). I'd just like to hear your reasoning.
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Post by brburns on Dec 9, 2009 7:54:30 GMT -6
And now you know the rest of the story. I miss Paul Harvey...... Anyway, Pocket hole are good in some areas, but I don't use them much. I did use them to attach the desktop on the roll top desk I made this year. I elongated the holes so the destop could move and glued the back side. I guess we'll see how well it works. I wouldn't hesitate to use them on a face frame on cabinets. I don't use them on furnature face frames. The way I figgure it on cabinet face frames is that it just holde the frame together while you attach it to the carcass. Then the glue beween the frame and the carcass will hold it all together. |
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rhull
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Post by rhull on Dec 9, 2009 8:00:47 GMT -6
Tim, I can't see where you're concerned about wood movement on pocket holes, but not worried about it on half lapped joints. It's really the same reason you wouldn't worry about it with m&t joints. You're putting tab A into slot B. With mechanical fasteners, when the wood moves, it's the mechanical faster itself that causes the problem, because it doesn't accomodate the movement, and it stronger than the wood (in most cases). Even with m&t or half-lap joints, you have to be careful not to make the joint too big or wood movement will become a problem there; that's why it's recommended that if you need a m&t joint larger than 4-5 inches that you split it into a double mortise. |
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Post by TDHofstetter on Dec 9, 2009 8:59:31 GMT -6
Rob's got it nailed (no insult intended)  . Not only movement across the butted piece (say a middle rail against the side of a stile) but movement across the stile as well. In a glued joint, the entire surface of the joint is glued, bonded, locked together, grain to grain. In the case of a stopped half-lap, that's a pretty good-sized chunk of face grain to face grain plus end grain to face grain (in the butted portion of the joint). The wood's surface grain will give just a little under stress, but not a whole lot - just about enough to keep a 2" lap joint alive through periods of movement. A pocket-screwed joint, though, is held very differently. Any glue makes for a butt joint - that's one point. Too, if the pocket-screwed joint is a wide joint (say the rail is 3" wide or wider) the "outboard" screws are far enough apart to make for real problems across the rail... and there's no really good way to "split the joint" - while with a split tenon you glue ONE of the tenons & let the rest float, you can't do that with pocket screws, they're all fixed. Mostly, though... drive a screw into a piece of wood, but not far enough to fully seat the screw's head. That's what a pocket joint becomes after one full cycle of wood movement - only the glued (if glue was used) butt joint remains to hold the joint together; the screws will help keep it in alignment, but not together. To fully get an example of what I'm talking about, screw two longish pieces of scrap together, face to face, with the screw at one end of both pieces like a bipod. This arrangement is only for the convenience of demostration, & doesn't exemplify a typical joint. Now grasp the two free ends and pry them apart a little, just until you can feel the screw(s) "give" a tiny bit. That represents what happens inside a pocket-screwed joint when the wood expands with a rise in humidity. When you release your grasp, the joint will be loose, with a gap between the two pieces - that's what happens when the wood shrinks back again with a drop in humidity. I don't want that gap, that looseness. I want fully glued joints, face grain to face grain, that won't pull apart or get loose with age (except possibly very advanced age). Every screwed joint I've ever seen in old furniture has been loose & floppy. That "old furniture" phrase brings up another side of it, too. Every screwed joint I've ever seen in old oak or cherry furniture (except where they used brass screws) has been VERY loose & floppy because the screws rusted badly. That's because of the tannin (tannic acid) in those woods. Might as well use a joint that's as happy in one species of wood as any other, I think. I dunno. For production work, for speed of assembly, you can't beat a pocket-screw joint. It just doesn't lend itself well to stuff that's expected to be nice for a very long time. |
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Post by deepsplinter on Dec 9, 2009 9:20:59 GMT -6
Thanks, Tim. I understand what you're saying, and it does make sense. However.....you still won't be seeing my Kreg jig in the Swap Shop any time soon. |
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Post by Ruffnek on Dec 9, 2009 10:25:43 GMT -6
So, when you build those cabinets this winter, assuming face-frame construction, what method will you use to join the face frames? Mortise & tenon, half-laps, stub tenon & groove, loose tenon (pretty quick and strong), dowels, Festool Domino? ;D I'm counting on using stopped half-laps. I'd use M&T but there are a LOT of joints & I don't have a mortiser yet. Everywhere the lap ends won't be visible, they'll be full half-laps. Good choice. According to the FWW joint strength test, half-lap joinery was the strongest...even stronger than M&T's. The stopped half-laps will hide the end-grain on the rails, too. A shop-made jig for a router with a bit and collar should make it go fairly fast although you will still need to square the corners. I'd be interested in seeing your set-up when you get started on it. |
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Post by TDHofstetter on Dec 9, 2009 11:10:26 GMT -6
Here's a quick peek at the plan (I'll mill the jigs from polycarbonate & use Corian guide rails). The joints:  The two router jigs:  ...and...  (the second jig will need to be made up in two sizes, with a tongue on each end for the two "hands" of double-stopped half-laps at corners) EDIT: One more sketch - the second size end jig for the double-stopped corner half-laps:  |
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Post by Leo Voisine on Dec 9, 2009 11:18:02 GMT -6
To me the application dictates what the joinery should be.
If I am building a crate to hold something that I am going to ship across country - then that crate is gonna get cut up with a sawzall and burned - I will pull out my framing nailer and wail away at it.
If I am building a workbench cabinet for my shop - or low end kitchen or bathroom cabinets - then yeah I would use dowels, biscuits, pocket screws.
If I an going for a high end Greene and Greene dresser changing table for my daughter to have as a keepsake for years and years to come - most likely no pocket screws.
Soo - it all depends.
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Post by Leo Voisine on Dec 9, 2009 11:23:10 GMT -6
Here's a quick peek at the plan (I'll mill the jigs from polycarbonate & use Corian guide rails). The joints: The two router jigs: ...and... (the second jig will need to be made up in two sizes, with a tongue on each end for the two "hands" of double-stopped half-laps at corners) EDIT: One more sketch - the second size end jig for the double-stopped corner half-laps: EGGSELLENT One rule of thumb: You do not ever want the load due to force of gravity to be placed on the fasteners. Loads should always be supported by means of structural members - not fasteners. |
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Post by Ruffnek on Dec 9, 2009 11:28:03 GMT -6
Thanks for the dwgs, Tim. That ought to work great. Lexan and Corian, huh? You don't do anything half-a$$ed, do you? ;D
Be sure and post progress pics as you go. It ought to make for a very interesting thread.
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Post by sachbvn on Dec 9, 2009 15:11:23 GMT -6
I love my kreg jig. Cabinetman must be older than joe if he was building cabinets before pocket hole joinery. Your brush is too broad. Walk into any furniture museum housing antiques. I'll betcha you find a few FINE pieces that have some pocket holes in 'em. Corner blocks on a kitchen table, for example. Junk eh? Heh. Okay. I don't agree at all. When it works, holds, lasts and saves some time ... how can it be junk? I agree with Beamer - I have the K3 Master Kreg PS sytem and LOVE it...... love it. You can do A LOT with it and get great looking results. Personally, I think that if someone were to say "it's junk, pure junk" than it more describes the fact that they won't use it and disagree with it - NOT whether or not the joinery method is any good or not. Some people do not consider PS "real woodworking" because it isn't a M&T or Lap, or DT joint or whatever.... IMO - that is being a woodworking snob. IN FACT - pocket screws ARE a woodworking joint.... it is a reinforced butt joint! Listen - if you use PS in the right areas, and use glue also - you are going to have a solid piece that lasts a long time. Some people just think screws are unacceptable and will never allow PS guys into their ww circle.... some feel that the guy using PS down the street somehow takes away from THEIR woodworking.... I've never figured out why. There are simply not all that many Woodworkers when you really look at the population - so..... PS or no PS - I welcome any and all. Oh - and BTW - this doesn't even cover all the "construction" type - throw together projects - or jig type projects that you can do with pocket screws. Lot's of stuff - especially when the quickness of getting it done far surpasses the need for a polished joint. Zac |
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Post by sachbvn on Dec 9, 2009 15:15:41 GMT -6
I'm counting on using stopped half-laps. I'd use M&T but there are a LOT of joints & I don't have a mortiser yet. Everywhere the lap ends won't be visible, they'll be full half-laps. Good choice. According to the FWW joint strength test, half-lap joinery was the strongest...even stronger than M&T's. The stopped half-laps will hide the end-grain on the rails, too. A shop-made jig for a router with a bit and collar should make it go fairly fast although you will still need to square the corners. I'd be interested in seeing your set-up when you get started on it. Cody, I thought about the EXACT same article as you just mentioned - and I couldn't remember the exact results, but I knew that M&T WAS NOT the strongest..... BUT - to be fair, this was ONE test done by FWW mag. and it was the test that simulates someone leaning on the back two legs of a chair....so.... IMO that doesn't accurately describe the many ways a joint could be stressed.... for instance - had they simulated the stresses of a joint in face frame construction..... well.... let's just say - they'd still be waiting on the results because many of the tested joints would still be holding fine!  Zac |
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Post by brburns on Dec 9, 2009 15:47:06 GMT -6
Oh, I forgot to mention. If you use all pocket screws in a piece of furnature, you may be able to call it "Fine Amish Furnature." That's all they use.
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Post by TDHofstetter on Dec 9, 2009 18:01:44 GMT -6
They drill those pocket holes with "eggbeater" manual drills?
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Joe Lyddon
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Post by Joe Lyddon on Dec 9, 2009 21:36:19 GMT -6
LOL ;D ;D ;D   |
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Stretch
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Post by Stretch on Dec 10, 2009 0:23:14 GMT -6
They drill those pocket holes with "eggbeater" manual drills? I read an article about Amish shops. It seems that the prohibition is against electric tools not power tools. So what they do is power their shop off a diesel engine. The diesel powers a large compressor and hydrolic pump. Al tools are modified so that they are powered by an air or hydrolic motor. Then everything is kosher. Oh and in the winter, the heat produced by the diesel engine is used to heat the shop. |
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