Your opinion on pocket screw joinery

[wisardd1]

when do you use it?
When do you not use it?
Is it a better method of joinery?

Curious about his since Joe recommended it. I hope some people respond to this threads. I would to here the ins and outs

dale

[cabinetman]

It's junk joinery. I don't use it.

[rrich]

It all depends.....

If the joinery will be visible, then it is M&T and/or dowels. If the joinery will be covered, then pocket screws are OK.

Look at it this way. Attaching a face frame to a cabinet carcass we usually use glue and a nail gun. What is the difference if the face frame is made with pocket screws?

If you're building fine furniture, pocket screws would be a no-no.

Although, I have found that pocket screws, not necessarily with pocket holes, are great holding devices. The screw itself is a clamping device. If a 1-1/4" screw has about 5/8" to grip in the wood, the holding is better than most other screws.

[Ruffnek]

It has it's place. Like Rich noted, on a cabinet face frame, where the joinery method is hidden, pocket screws are a great method and are a quicker and stronger joint than stub tenons or cope & stick joinery.

Someone showed a table recently that had the aprons joined to the legs with pocket holes and screws. While that may not rate as fine furniture in some circles, the joinery is hidden, strong and
durable. I see nothing wrong with using pocket screws in cases like that.

Years ago, before I even got into woodworking, I watched Scott Phillips build a hutch using pocket screw joinery. I didn't know anything about it but the hutch turned out looking great.

[wisardd1]

Cab, why is it junk joinery? Are'nt screws the strongest type of joinery? I have a mental block against using them because they seem like cheating (not that I am taking a test) but nonetheless, I am trying to get functional verses form of understanding about them. Well, I am partial to form too. Oh well, you know what I mean.

dale

[Joe Lyddon]

Even if the pocket holes are visible, there is a way to cover them up with little shaped wood/plastic colored fillers that slide perfectly into the holes... work great... and it's better than leaving a hole...

I used Pocket screw joinery on two book/magazine cases... My first Real project with them... I was pleasantly surprised how fast it went... Don't have to wait for glue to dry... Parts are cut to their simple lengths w/o allowing for rabetts or tenons... Cut it and use it! Really simple & fast!

That walnut mirror was a perfect example of a good PS project!

I love'em, in their place...

[dcarter636]

I regret spending the money on the drill and jig. The washer head screws are handy as all get out and have replaced drywall screws as my utility fastener.

Not lacking for clamps or cauls here, I can't get a fine alignment on face frame front surfaces. Dale's mirror frame frame was undoubtedly better aligned with dowels than any I have done with pocket screws.

IMHO it's much like biscuit joinery, an overblown fad that we hope will shore up some skills not yet developed. I sometimes use pocket screws on awkward hidden brackets but not on visible joints. They are certainly faster than M&T or doweling but I can't say they're better overall.

[TDHofstetter]

I have issues with pocket hole joinery, myself. Ya see... wood MOVES.

So - let's say you have a rail & a stile you join together with pocket screws. You run 'em down tight. The stile swells with humidity, pulls the screw tighter, distorting the "threads" cut into the wood. Now the stile shrinks with a drop in humidity and one of two things happen: Either the screws stick in their new tightened location & the joint opens up slightly, or else the screws loosen in the end of the rail & don't hold the joint tight any more.

With a glued joint, the pieces stay right where you put 'em unless the glue joint fails. It won't loosen, the gap won't open, everything stays put. Also, since the glue effectively seals the end grain at the end of the rail (assuming the rail butts into the side of the stile), at least the rail won't move appreciably. With pocket screws, if the joint opens even a tiny bit, the end grain is unsealed, exposed, ready to take on (or give up) moisture.

[hescores]

I certainly think they have their place and will gladly use them when it's called for. A face frame for example. Heck, I even did pocket holes to attache the face frame to the carcass on a cabinet that I did. It was just a shop cabinet and it is basically hidden. So, to make it easier on myself and the process much faster, I used pocket screw joinery. Would I use it on something as nice as a show piece? Probably not, unless it was completely hidden.

[cabinetman]

Dec 8, 2009 13:24:34 GMT -6 wisardd1 said:

Cab, why is it junk joinery? Are'nt screws the strongest type of joinery? I have a mental block against using them because they seem like cheating (not that I am taking a test) but nonetheless, I am trying to get functional verses form of understanding about them. Well, I am partial to form too. Oh well, you know what I mean.

dale

You asked for our opinion, and mine is that both pocket hole joinery and biscuits are junk joinery methods. I was building cabinets before pocket screws and biscuits and I've tried both.

There are those here that say they use PH joinery and like it. I'm not out to start a flame war.

[Joe Lyddon]

Clamping various things can be tricky & needs thought...

Faceframes:
I use the Vise Grip style clamp, with pads...
I put the two pieces together, hold firmly & onto the bench while I clamp the pieces to the bench... making sure they are positioned (aligned) exactly the way I want them, then I screw them together.

Shelf to Side:
I clamp a Stop Block across the Side with a scrap piece of the same material as an alignment spacer, hold the Shelf in place (against the Stop Block & with screws in all holes), and screw one screw into place. That holds it in place while I screw the others. Works like a charm.

The most critical thing is that ALL pieces must be square in ALL jointing directions. I usually use a shooting board on the Rails to be sure the ends are absolutely perfect.

Make sure the saw blade is at 90*.
Mark the Rails with a fine-point pencil & cut slightly proud by say 1/32" (to be cleaned up with shooting board).

[Joe Lyddon]

Dec 8, 2009 15:04:03 GMT -6 TDHofstetter said:

I have issues with pocket hole joinery, myself. Ya see... wood MOVES.

So - let's say you have a rail & a stile you join together with pocket screws. You run 'em down tight. The stile swells with humidity, pulls the screw tighter, distorting the "threads" cut into the wood. Now the stile shrinks with a drop in humidity and one of two things happen: Either the screws stick in their new tightened location & the joint opens up slightly, or else the screws loosen in the end of the rail & don't hold the joint tight any more.

With a glued joint, the pieces stay right where you put 'em unless the glue joint fails. It won't loosen, the gap won't open, everything stays put. Also, since the glue effectively seals the end grain at the end of the rail (assuming the rail butts into the side of the stile), at least the rail won't move appreciably. With pocket screws, if the joint opens even a tiny bit, the end grain is unsealed, exposed, ready to take on (or give up) moisture.

They recommend that a small bead of glue be placed before adjoining with the screws... The screws merely act as clamps "while the glue dries". ;D

[Joe Lyddon]

Dec 8, 2009 15:23:27 GMT -6 cabinetman said:

Dec 8, 2009 13:24:34 GMT -6 wisardd1 said:

Cab, why is it junk joinery? Are'nt screws the strongest type of joinery? I have a mental block against using them because they seem like cheating (not that I am taking a test) but nonetheless, I am trying to get functional verses form of understanding about them. Well, I am partial to form too. Oh well, you know what I mean.

dale

You asked for our opinion, and mine is that both pocket hole joinery and biscuits are junk joinery methods. I was building cabinets before pocket screws and biscuits and I've tried both.

There are those here that say they use PH joinery and like it. I'm not out to start a flame war.

You're NOT starting a Flame War, in my view... ;D

You are stating your opinion. ;D

... and so am I. ;D

It's just like anything else... unless you Try it, you don't know if you like it or not... I tried it... It took me a little extra Thinking here & there... but, I ended up liking it... In it's place. ;D

You tried it & don't like it. ;D

Here's an idea:
For all those that bought it & don't like it... and still have the Jig, drill, & clamps on hand, Sell them to those who want to Try it (at a reduced price, of course)... Might be a win win situation! ;D

[Ruffnek]

[quote author=joelyddon board=genwork thread=768 post=7305 time=1260308502
Here's an idea:
For all those that bought it & don't like it... and still have the Jig, drill, & clamps on hand, Sell them to those who want to Try it (at a reduced price, of course)... Might be a win win situation! ;D

[/quote]

What a novel idea, Joe!

My pocket hole jig is just like my biscuit joiners...they don't get used much but sometimes they are just what fits the bill.

This afternoon, I was making some more little bracket feet for another box. I used my little Ryobi mini-biscuit joiner to join the miters together on the bracket pieces. Those mini-biscuits are 1" long x 1/2" wide and fit perfectly in the small space.

I could have used splines, but the mini-biscuits were pre-cut, are completely hidden after glue-up and it only took about 5 minutes to cut the slots and glue-up the four assemblies...and half of t hat time was spent reversing the guide to fit a 45 deg. miter.

That mini-biscuit joiner went back in the cabinet, perhaps for a long time, but one day it will be just what the doctor ordered again. As always, YMMV.

[dicklaxt]

AllI have to say is if you can't screw it glue it.

dick

[Joe Lyddon]

I have a Biscuit joiner that I have used once... it wasn't what it was cracked up to be... I could probably unload it on eBay. ;D

I didn't know Ryobi made a Mini-Biscuit goodie... sounds cool for that application... better than just glue & brads...

What does "YMMV" mean?

[wisardd1]

Cab, I meant my question to as legitimate. I read Tim's so far, it seems the most practical as why not to use it, which is my tendency anyway.

Dick,
Did you mean if you can glue it, screw it?

[rhull]

Dec 8, 2009 15:04:03 GMT -6 TDHofstetter said:

I have issues with pocket hole joinery, myself. Ya see... wood MOVES.

+1

[Ruffnek]

Dec 8, 2009 15:04:03 GMT -6 TDHofstetter said:

I have issues with pocket hole joinery, myself. Ya see... wood MOVES.

So, when you build those cabinets this winter, assuming face-frame construction, what method will you use to join the face frames? Mortise & tenon, half-laps, stub tenon & groove, loose tenon (pretty quick and strong), dowels, Festool Domino? ;D

[deepsplinter]

I'm a big fan of pocket hole joinery.

It's easy.
It's quick.
It works!!

In theory, I can see where expansion/contraction might crush a few fibers, but I just can't see where in 1 1/4" (length of most PH screws) there would be enough movement to cause the joint to fail.

I don't use it everywhere, but it does have it's place.

If I had a nickel for every PH joint out there that's holding tightly, I'd be a very wealthy man.

Simply put....pocket hole joinery works.