Joe Lyddon
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Post by Joe Lyddon on Nov 16, 2009 19:42:09 GMT -6
Two planes - one with a small mouth, one with a large mouth like me.  What are the advantages of one over the other?  |
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Post by TDHofstetter on Nov 16, 2009 19:55:06 GMT -6
It's said - at least for conventional planes, with conventional iron-depth settings - that hardwoods prefer a small throat opening & softwoods prefer a large throat opening. I've been gnarling around with this whole concept for a long time & I'm not positive I can see any great purpose for a large throat opening at all... but I'm sure there'd be some who primarily work softwoods who would simply INSIST that they want a large throat opening.
Seems to me that the throat opening shouldn't be much larger than necessary to pass the strip of tissue-thin veneer that curls up off the cutting edge. It helps break that curl against the chipbreaker, and prevents peeling up a long sliver of wood from 'way down deep. Ya can't just tell folks that something they've used for 30 years ain't gonna' be available, though.
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Post by TDHofstetter on Nov 16, 2009 19:59:24 GMT -6
... what do you do? mill it out of billet or cast it, I guess. I was thinking about that collection of words during one of my smoke sessions... ...and the answer is "unless". It's been suggested, early on in this whole plane discussion, that I try making a plane from steel channel. That would actually work for this - if an adjustable opening turned out to be a high priority, it COULD be made available... just not with peened dovetails. It could be made instead from a stock size of hot-rolled (or fully stress-relieved cold-rolled) channel. Or square tubing with the top lopped. |
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Post by dcarter636 on Nov 16, 2009 20:18:36 GMT -6
I've never before heard or read of anyone preferring a big mouth on a hand plane, only that a fine mouth opening is not as terribly critical as some scribes would suggest. There exists in a shop 40 feet from this terminal a couple of heavy smoothers that reliably take .0010" wisps of hard maple but have wide open mouths circa .050".
A fine mouth opening certainly does denote precision in manufacture and folks will pay for precision. And a tight mouth can't hurt unless you are taking an awfully thick shaving.
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Post by TDHofstetter on Nov 16, 2009 20:30:12 GMT -6
Ya oughtta' see a couple of my old planes... got an opening you can almost stick your pinkie through.  |
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Post by dcarter636 on Nov 16, 2009 20:48:34 GMT -6
So, sounds like yer leaning toward a fixed mouth, stainless sole, brass sides, 15o bed. With a differential screw depth adjuster? Lateral adjuster?
Does Lee Valley have a patent on the through the side plate blade positioning set screws? Four of those set screws could manage lateral adjustment and be more bump proof than any lateral adjuster in mass production.
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Post by TDHofstetter on Nov 16, 2009 21:39:57 GMT -6
Two options for the block plane (and the smoother): Stainless side panels or brass. No lateral adjuster at this point, although that mention of the setscrews really rings a bell in my head - I'm not even positive there's a need for four - if two guide bosses are built into the bottom of the ramp, only two would be required near the top of the iron. Midpoint, maybe. How's this look for nose divot style? I've also cut away the rear infill a little for better finger relief.  |
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Beamer
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Post by Beamer on Nov 16, 2009 21:54:33 GMT -6
That divot looks dang near perfect - if the floor of its valley is near parallel with the sole, i'd say perfect. From a design standpoint, maybe you could mirror that divot on the upper infill as well? Might look neat (and give a little more upper thumb knuckle clearance, too), eh? Yes. I continue to stake my dibs on the first model of this. Absolutely - specially since I'll bet the brass fits the stock sizes I can get, right? |
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Beamer
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Post by Beamer on Nov 16, 2009 21:55:43 GMT -6
Say .. one minor thought i had - that knob in the back - is the meat of a beefy guy's hand gonna get clogged in those works any? I'm not sure how low ya have it, maybe it's fine?
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Joe Lyddon
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Banned.
Sam Maloof & I Dec. 2, 2005
Posts: 2,507
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Post by Joe Lyddon on Nov 16, 2009 22:25:44 GMT -6
I think the Divot is on the right track... but it looks more like a 'thumb' divot instead of an 'index finger' divot... ;D  ;D Wouldn't have to be very deep... maybe no more than 1/4" deep at the front & a slender 5/8" point going back to 3/4" (& 1/16" deep) placed right in the middle. Rolled-over edges... a nice lil blend into the divot. Looking GOOD... dang GOOD!  |
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Post by mapleman on Nov 16, 2009 22:38:08 GMT -6
Hey Tim, 'tis looking beautiful! My only concern about the set screws for lateral adjustment is holding power --- do you think an idjit like me could overtorque the sets and strip the brass threads? probably somewhat farfetched tho. ahhh nevermind i like the relief in the front too. my paws ain't very big, but i never use two hands on a block.... john |
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Stretch
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Post by Stretch on Nov 16, 2009 22:53:29 GMT -6
I like it. The divot on the front is exactly what I would want. I kinda share Beamer's thought on the back knob. I have big hands and I wonder if the heel of my hand would hit that knob.
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Post by TDHofstetter on Nov 16, 2009 23:04:02 GMT -6
Ok, let's do this: I'll mock up a wooden block plane with this profile, hand-test it, and take some photos from various angles with hands on. My hands're 3.5" wide under the web of the thumb, for reference. If anybody wants a copy of the profile so they can mock up their own to test for hand fit, I'd be pleased to send 'em one... |
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sawduster
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Post by sawduster on Nov 17, 2009 8:46:42 GMT -6
I like it. I think that if my hand is placed such that my birdie finger is resting on the front divot, the adjuster will be well below the base of my palm. Don't know how you could get that adjuster any lower and burying it inside the infill would make it difficult to make adjustments. One of the things I like about my LV planes is the set screws for locking in the later adjustment.
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lexrex
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Post by lexrex on Nov 20, 2009 11:56:33 GMT -6
I thought, and please correct me, that the tight mouth was useful in figured wood situations where it could help reduce tearout? No? If I understand correctly, the mouth just in front of the blade holds down the fiber forward of the blade thus keeping them from splitting and tearing out.
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sawduster
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Post by sawduster on Nov 20, 2009 12:07:50 GMT -6
I thought, and please correct me, that the tight mouth was useful in figured wood situations where it could help reduce tearout? No? If I understand correctly, the mouth just in front of the blade holds down the fiber forward of the blade thus keeping them from splitting and tearing out. What you say is true, at least in the case of a smoothing plane, but even there the benefit, IME, is marginal in comparison to that of a very sharp blade. A tighter mouth will not bring much in the way of benefit if the blade is not sharp. By the same token, a sharper blade in a plane with a wider mouth will bring much greater improvement. I have always set the frog on my metal smoothers coplanar to the ramp on the back of the mouth of the plane for the added benefit of additional support of the blade. The little bit of added support on the blade, IMO, trumps the benefit of a tighter mouth. |
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Post by dcarter636 on Nov 20, 2009 18:33:05 GMT -6
That is my experience as well Jerry. Nothing beats a truly sharp edge.
Folks talk endlessly about a tight mouth clamping fibers down and preventing tear-out, but they don't talk about the downward force that also needs to be applied on the front end of the plane to make that work. It's pretty near impossible to apply an adequate amount of down force to make a tight mouth prevent tear-out on QS oak with an index finger resting on the nose of a block plane.
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Post by mapleman on Nov 20, 2009 22:09:28 GMT -6
that is a great point about the force necessary to really make a difference.
one problem i have found with a very narrow mouth, even on a smoother, is that it will fill with shavings and impede the works... especially the shorter the piece of lumber...
john
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sawduster
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Post by sawduster on Nov 21, 2009 9:23:41 GMT -6
Yeah I fiddled around with the mouth on my Knight wooden smoother and ended up opening it up a bit because it was forever getting clogged.
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Post by CajunRider on Nov 22, 2009 7:18:53 GMT -6
Um... not including Dave yet... ... is this closer to what ya think ya might like to see? Figure the side indentations sandblasted to matte. Please disregard that chip in the nose of each plane; that's a SketchUp artifact that simply will NOT rub out.   I like this version a lot. Even with my small hand, I still don't think I'll need a front knob. The side indentation should be enough for me to grab and move it. The rear knob should have smooth enough edge so it won't bite my hand should I happen to push a little hard. I've done that a time or two |
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;D
