Working up from zilch, what would you start with?

[RiverWalker]

So I grew up doing some minor woodworking, but now, on my own, have pretty much nothing as far as tools go.

but, I have been inspired to want to make a couple things for my better half, and after checking out a couple of books from the library, its got me thinking as to how feasable some things might be with getting into all-manual woodworking.

what would you get if you had to start from zilch, to get the most bang for your buck, and be able to do as much as you could, with as little as you could? preferably things that'd give you a foundation to work with as you hoped for good luck at garage sales for salvagable planes/plane irons, refurbishable saws and suchlike.

how worthwhile(or not) are those "workmate" things? (something like this: www.amazon.com/gp/product/product-description/B0000302VO ) it seems like while it'd be vastly inferior to a "proper" workbench, it'd be very versatile and a decent enough starting place.

in addition to that, I'm thinking a cheapish handsaw, a backsaw with a miter box, a straight edge/metal ruler, a combination square or trysquare, perhaps a chisel.
and what I am the most uncertain about, is a plane. would something like this, www.amazon.com/Empire-Level-8805-Shaping-2-Inch/dp/B000GAV2X8 be of any use at all, or is that sort of thing a complete joke?

some of what I've read online, makes it sound like home-made planes might be something that could be worthwhile to think about, but how much of that could really practical? or would it be as likely to find minimally functional whole used planes, as it would be to get the irons to use on home-made ones? could rudimentary tools and scavenged irons make a decent enough tool to be used in making a BETTER one? or would a certain threshold of functionality just not be able to be reached without already having something good?


so if you had to use as basic of stuff as could be, and had a small budget to work with. what would you be unable to do without? what would be the most effective at empowering you to make other tools? what would be the most bang for the buck, both in tools themselves, and in tools to refurbish garage sale/antique store/flea market tools?

(assuming a reasonable mechanical aptitude and general capability)

[fredbelknap]

RW welcome to the forum. I realize you have put a lot of thought and work in your post. We have some on here that like to do a lot with handtools. I must confess I am one that likes the tailed type but I understand where you are coming from. You mentioned the small workmate bench, I think about everyone owns one, they do ok but are limited. I can see one using handsaws for crosscutting but for ripping I think a powered saw would sure make it a lot easier. Not saying it couldn't be done. There are books and tv shows that are dedicated to that type of work, Roy Underhhill comes to mind. Finding handtools at auctions and flea markets is a good place to start and a lot of fun. Try different things and get a feel for what you like, others will be along that have a lot more to offer than I do. This is a good place to find answers, but it is kind of hard to answer generalized questions. Have fun and join into the discussions, I think you will like us.

[dcarter636]

Your list is a pretty good start; I would go with a inexpensive set of 1/4"-1/2"-1" chisels. You will need a few clamps, versatile "F" bar clamps are common at yard sales and any clamp that has Acme screw threads will do.

A workmate is a handy thing for use with power tools but not solid enough for much hand tool work, a stout pair of saw horses would be a useful first project and cost less. A simple but solid work bench would be another vital item, later on you could add fancy vises to it as needed.

That shaping rasp/plane is good for removing excess Bondo in a body shop but not very useful in wood working. I have found very good hand planes for $1-$15 at yard sales, particularly in older neighborhoods in early Spring. Having disciplined patience pays off big here. If you don't know how a properly set-up plane should behave you should probably put off making them from scratch for a while. A 5"-7" long cast iron block plane of any persuasion is the most basic need in my opinion a Stanley #220 or a Millers Falls #75 are a good place to start. A 14" jack plane, a 18"-24" jointer plane and a 8"-10" smoothing plane would be right behind the block plane on my list.

Sharpening skills and implements are a fundamental requirement for hand tool work, chisels and hand planes need razor fine (or better) edges to work well and it takes some practice and a few tools to do that. The scary sharp sandpaper approach likely poses the lowest entry cost for adequate sharpening capability.

Old hand saws are common as dirt but you will need to sharpen them too. Triangular saw sharpening files available at any hardware or BORG store; the knowledge is available from some the folks here and on the Internet. Once you know the difference twixt a crosscut and a rip saw then the thing to pay attention to at yard sales is that the saw plate is dead straight, no kinks or bends.

There is a lot more to want but, a hammer, a square, two saws, three chisels and a decent block plane is a good place to start.

[sawduster]

Dave gave you some great advice.

Hand tools will require a bit more investment in skill building than power tools, generally. First off there is the use of the tools themselves, but in addition to that, sharpening and other maintenance of them require additional skills. Not trying to chase you away. These skills are readily learn-able and develop quickly once you start doing them.

Most of the accessory items for working with hand tools can be made quite easily in the shop with a few basic tools.


For instance, this saw bench that Kevin posted here is a great thing to have. You might want to make two of them to handle longer boards. You make these to custom fit you to hold the work at the proper height for hand sawing, somewhere around the level of your knees.

A heavy workbench is nearly a must, but you can keep it simple initially, like Dave mentioned, and make changes and additions as you discover you own methods of work. Check around the internet and in library books and such for simple plans. Depending on what is available where you live, Southern Yellow Pine or Douglas Fir are plenty hard enough for a bench top and, if you can find some decent construction stuff at the big box, can be fairly cheap.

As with power tools, there are all sorts of jigs you can make to help you work faster and more accurately. Bench Hooks, shooting boards and the like.

Unless you want to drop large chunks of change into premium modern saws and hand planes, you will want to search out vintage tools. Some folks live in areas where they are plentiful, others are not so lucky. Learn as much as you can about these tools before you start looking so you know what to look for. If you can't find them yourself, you can chance ebay, but a better option, in my opinion is to work through a reputable dealer. I can give you a couple names of dealers who I have had excellent business with. They will be a few dollars more (maybe) than other sources, but they stand behind their stuff and they do some of the initial tuning of the tools before they put them up for sale.

One more thing. Having some one to sort of tutor you, and help with some hands on learning is a great asset in learning hand tool skills. Lots of folks here and on other wood working forums are more than happy to help out someone in their neck of the woods. There's nothing like actually using a well tuned hand plane or well sharpened hand saw to get the feel of what you're working toward as you tune your own tools. Folks are also pretty good at sharing their sources of tools and wood and anything else with another wood worker, especially a newly budding one. If you were to add something in your profile to give folks an idea of what part of the world you hang out, you might find several people willing to help you out. I've even known folks here to give a tool or two away if they have extras to other wood workers. And we all generally end up with a few duplicates of tools. It's sort of an addiction. ;D

[TDHofstetter]

I'm gonna' take a little diff'rent tack here, I think.

When somebody asks about router bit sets, or chisel sets, or sets of turning tools for a wood lathe, I'll nearly always suggest that they hold off & buy the INDIVIDUAL tools they DEFINITELY need to get a particular operation accomplished. That saves in both the short run and the long run, since they won't own any tools they seldom use that way... and if their interest takes a tangent they won't have wasted money following their initial course. Too, they wind up with a better grade of individual tools than if they'd shoved all that money on the unused tools.

That's what I'll suggest here, too. I'd recommend that you NOT buy a collection of starter tools before you have an actual project before you. I'll suggest instead that you pick a project that appears to be within your skill range and decide what tooling you actually need to finish that project... figure out what each piece will look like, and figure out what tools it'll take to convert stock dimensioned wood into those pieces. What cuts will be necessary? How will you handle edges & surfaces on each piece? How will you attach the pieces to each other? What makes the most sense given your workspace & unique set of constraints?

Then... buy decent tools - EXACTLY the tools - it takes to finish that project. If you get hung in the middle, figure out what additional tooling it'll take to get unhung & proceed from there.

Among other things... try to avoid buying a cheap handsaw (unless you're talking about a good old handsaw from a yard sale). I've owned a few cheapies, and some of 'em don't even make good scrap steel; edges poorly sharpened, poorly hardened (won't keep an edge if they get sharpened), blades not good & flat, handle awkward or uncomfortable in the hand, etc etc etc. Vexations to the spirit. Much of that applies to other tools, too... although there are SOME tools that CAN be bought cheap & wind up being pretty good stuff.

Last note: Try & make as many mistakes as possible on PAPER, not in wood. Paper's a LOT cheaper than wood is.

[Safetyboy]

Having started out not too long ago similar to you (5 years or so), I'll second Tim's advice - think about a particular project you want to make, then buy what you need to make that project (and buy quality if you think you want to be at this for a while).

Start simple - a plywood shelf with solid wood edging requires much less tooling than an all solid-wood table or dresser. If you want to glue up panels or use rough lumber, you'll need a lot more tools (jointer & planer or workbench and bench planes). A confession: chisels never touched my projects until after the first 5-6 things i built - I didn't have any, and never had a dire need for them.

A lot of tools aren't required but simply make things faster - I built a few shelves/bookcases with only a circular saw & guide, but man did I speed up when I got a tablesaw. Popular Woodworking magazine has an "I Can Do That" column with projects designed specifically for limited hand tools.

All that lacks specific suggestions for particular tools, but you get the idea - get what you need as you go.

And have fun doing it!

[sawduster]

I think that a lot of us here (maybe most of us) started off in this hobby with limited tools at our disposal. I know I did. And I agree that one should build up their collection a little at a time, buying the best they can afford, and basing their purchases on what they need for the project at hand. Hopefully, nothing I said was construed as being otherwise.

My answer, as well as that of Dave (if I may be so bold), was based on specific questions in the original post. His questions were not about what he needed to buy, but rather the sources of things he would or might need.

[dcarter636]

Like you Jerry, I was addressing riverwalker's summary question specifically about hand tools, posed in a hand tool forum. You, I, and many others work in "balanced" shops where what is best done with hand tools, is, and what is best done with power tools is accomplished through loudly sacrificing electrons. He is asking about basic hand tools at this time.

Tim, my issue with waiting until you are stalled for want of a tool, is that too often one ends up spending $40 in haste for what could have been had for $25 with some planning and patient hunting.


Just now, looking at Kevin's saw bench and thinking through how to make it with hand tools only, I realized that we overlooked basic need for making round holes. A worthy brace and bit set and-or a "eggbeater" drill with the appropriate non-twist bits will probably end up costing as much as an acceptable electric drill and basic twist bit set.

In keeping with the balanced shop philosophy, I would go with a corded electric drill and a set of twist bits. Cordless drills are very handy but cost more than twice the price of corded versions and their batteries tend to be dead at the most inconvenient times.

[admin]

Apr 26, 2010 16:26:33 GMT -6 dcarter636 said:

Just now, looking at Kevin's saw bench and thinking through how to make it with hand tools only, I realized that we overlooked basic need for making round holes. A worthy brace and bit set and-or a "eggbeater" drill with the appropriate non-twist bits will probably end up costing as much as an acceptable electric drill and basic twist bit set.

If I had my money back in my pocket, I'd get a brace for sure. My eggbeater is a pain to use because it's tough to turn the handle without the whole aparatus moving and wallowing out the hole. Not an issue if one were making a hole for a wire through a stud, big problem if it's a precision hole though. It's far too easy to let the upper handle wobble to and fro while you work the crank. It can be done, but it's a LOT slower than the brace by my mileage. I can bore 10 perfect holes with the brace to one ok one with the eggbeater through the same material.

My .02.

[TDHofstetter]

Good point, Teedge. Even eggbeater breast drills aren't nearly as stable as you'd like 'em to be while you crank.

[RiverWalker]

Thanks for all the input,

oh and I've been reading "Traditional Woodworking Handtools" by Graham Blackburn, and it makes things like tuning and sharpening a handsaw look very doable, rather than impossibly difficult and ominous.

it sounds like overall it may be worthwhile to try to be ambitious and see about building a basic workbench instead of getting the workmate.

I think I will keep the advice regarding buying only and specifically what is needed for the project specifically at hand, well in mind and I will consider some options trying to be as minimalist tool-wise as possible.
I just ordered "The Workbench Book" from the library, so that might give me some things to chew on.

definitely going to have to be a bit more proactive and keep an eye on garage sales and such.

I totally follow what you guys are saying though.

the project(s) I have in mind for the better half are in the direction of smallish boxes and that sort of deal.

I'm also hoping to be able to possibly make things decent enough to sell, and be able to perpetuate getting tools and such in that sort of direction.

oh and I do have a crappy power drill, it sucks, but should probably be enough for the most basic stuff.

I may have to also see if I can get my dad to send me some of the hand tools he got from my grandfather that I don't think hes touched in the years since he inherited them...

[TDHofstetter]

You'll develop an eye specially tuned for yard sales. Every time you see one, your eyes will learn to scan quickly for colors - reds, blues, yellows, greens... those mean "toys" and their predominance will diminish the likelihood that you'll stop to browse. Now, if your eye spots silvers, blacks, and browns... THOSE are YOUR colors - you'll STOP for those.

[sawduster]

I may have to also see if I can get my dad to send me some of the hand tools he got from my grandfather that I don't think hes touched in the years since he inherited them...

Them are really special tools and hopefully your dad will be happy to have you get them.

[Mark]

I just ordered "The Workbench Book" from the library, so that might give me some things to chew on.

River, you'll learn alot from that book, I did. The presentation about design features in terms of their actual function and purpose, will help with any kind of bench you build. Just don't let the complexity of the two specific benches presented discourage you from making a solid, functional bench for your present and near-term learning.

My entry to the hobby was by building some stacking bookcase boxes, for which I decided I needed a circular saw and a router. At the time, I didn't have the patience to deal with handtools, and the boxes turned out. They were used for many years, before being sold at a garage sale when I finally had a house to furnish.

Thanks,
Mark

[RiverWalker]

Apr 27, 2010 16:36:28 GMT -6 sawduster said:

I may have to also see if I can get my dad to send me some of the hand tools he got from my grandfather that I don't think hes touched in the years since he inherited them...

Them are really special tools and hopefully your dad will be happy to have you get them.

yeah, it would be really nice to have that sort of story to them and all. the cost of mailing though for that... oof. why couldn't I have come to this idea when my parents DROVE here for thanksgiving?

Apr 27, 2010 19:08:38 GMT -6 Mark said:

I just ordered "The Workbench Book" from the library, so that might give me some things to chew on.

River, you'll learn alot from that book, I did. The presentation about design features in terms of their actual function and purpose, will help with any kind of bench you build. Just don't let the complexity of the two specific benches presented discourage you from making a solid, functional bench for your present and near-term learning.

it sounds like it will have just the information I'm in need of. I figure whatever I make will have to be on the small, simplified, cheap end. but if its strong, stable and somewhat flat, that should do enough of the job for now. getting that much should be pretty easy.

[mapleman]

just another thought on handsaws ---- you can get a very good, serviceable, and versatile japanese style (pull type) saw from any BORG store. mine is a fine tooth on one side for crosscuts or flushcutting, other side is coarse for ripping/dovetails. you pretty much cannot sharpen it b/c they are so hard --- but cheap so you can replace the blade (keep the handle).

i am a big hand tool collector - planes, spokeshaves, chisels, etc. these are great for old pickups for anyone. but old saws are a little different, IMHO. the cheapy japanese saw is a great investment, if you ask me.

but you didn't and i told you anyway

john

[dburkhart]

River I made a couple of work benchs out of 2x6 pine actually they were extensions behind my old table saw.I use them for everything.Glueups,sanding ect...I have a "real workbench"with two vises but i tend to use those tables more.My loml goes to yard sales all the time and is bringing me tools she thinks i might like.Send me an address and i will look around and send you some. You may need to sharpen them but they would be free so you cant hurt them by practice.


Darrell

[RiverWalker]

Apr 29, 2010 15:31:26 GMT -6 dburkhart said:

River I made a couple of work benchs out of 2x6 pine actually they were extensions behind my old table saw.I use them for everything.Glueups,sanding ect...I have a "real workbench"with two vises but i tend to use those tables more.My loml goes to yard sales all the time and is bringing me tools she thinks i might like.Send me an address and i will look around and send you some. You may need to sharpen them but they would be free so you cant hurt them by practice.


Darrell

This comes to the point I was just going to ask about. materials for benches.
it seems a given from what I've read online and all that the predominantly preferable material for the bench top itself is lots and lots of expensive maple, laminated using about twelve million bar clamps.
but I am not finding a decisive listing or anything (in fact, not much at all, besides whats been said in this thread. but maybe I'm just not looking for the right place), of what you should do if you do not have a father in law whos an independently wealthy lumberyard owner who somehow thinks you ARE good enough for his daughter.

I picked up the workbench book today, and while I'm sure more in this direction is in there somewhere, I expected there to be a "materials" section specifically adressing the issue. ... but I don't see it.

Also today, I spent some time at the nearest "BORG"'s, noting prices and such, which brings me to a couple specific questions on the bench issue.

how important is the laminated thing? would I be right to figure that it has to do with the way the wood moves with humidity? or what? would using such a construction technique help make budget materials behave like more expensive materials?

one of the woods at Lowes was labeled "Whitewood", looking this up online, says that is a name for a variety of spruce sometimes. for the benchtop, would this be worth considering? it stood out in particular because they had 1"x10"x4' pieces for a touch under $4, and figuring for it to be a 3-4' long bench (not planning on doing large projects for now anyway) that'd be a cheap worktop, if its sufficiently hard/strong/whatever.

another budget-y lumber I saw that caught my eye was in the decking area, was marked KD SYP, would I be correct intepreting that as Kiln Dried Southern Yellow Pine? (I feel stupid, but better to ask...) I know that the stuff with the grungey green tinge and oily/waxy texture is weather treated and generally not useful for this sort of thing, but if it doesn't have that, should it be serviceable for this purpose? or are there other things that would differentiate it as not appropriate?

I'm figuring the rest of the construction would pretty much be just 2x4's and carriage bolts.

I figure adding a vice like this one, ( www.acehardware.com/product/index.jsp?productId=1290491&kw=vise&origkw=vice&searchId=47499138304 ) it'd probably be only a little more cost wise than the workmate I had first thought of, and likely better overall for what I want to do.

on a different point, saw one of those japanese style saws, a bigish one with crosscut teeth on one side, and rip teeth on the other. (I think this was it www.homedepot.com/Tools-Hardware-Hand-Tools/h_d1/N-5yc1vZ60o5lZas71/R-100204043/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053 )looked kinda spiffy. of course, gonna see what I can get otherwise first, but looks like it could be something to consider to get me working, until finding or otherwise obtaining refurbishable saws.


Darrell, I might just have to get that to you, gotta check with my better half first on sharing that sorta info though, heh, ya know how it is.

I look forward to reading any info people have on my newest questions.

[dcarter636]

SYP is used by a lot of folks for benches and as someone already wrote here, Douglas Fir is a decent choice. Hemlock (white wood) is mighty soft, light, and not very stiff, but I would think a passable 3'x4' bench top could be made from hem-fir 2x4s laminated to make a 3 ¹/₂" thick top. You also want the top thick enough that bench dogs don't beat out their holes and wobble so badly that they become useless.

More important than the specific material used is that a hand tool oriented workbench top be solid and preferably heavy. When you are pounding on a mortise chisel you don't want the bench top to vibrate, the top should seem to be as solid as a concrete floor; 1" thick anything won't be satisfactorily rigid.

My main bench originally had a store bought 1 3/4" thick laminated maple top and I soon found that I had to add some massive stiffeners to the underside to stop annoying vibrations that moderate pounding induced.

[Safetyboy]

In Chris Schwartz' "Workbenches" book he has a decent section on material selection - with charts comparing the stiffness, weight, and hardness of different species - the conclusion is many species will make a fine workbench - choose whatever you can find that is stiff, dense, and cheap where you live.

SYP (Southern Yellow Pine) is used for floor joists & such in many ares of the country, so it's readily available in many home centers (I'd stay away from the treated stuff used for decking). Usually people recommend buying the 2x12's, ripping them to 3 or 4" wide, turning on edge and laminating to make up the width of your bench - but this really needs power tools (tablesaw, jointer), and a heck of a lot of clamps. The lamination makes a stiffer bench, because the wood is stiffer along this axis.