Can you thin Spar varnish?

[gomer]

Apr 22, 2010 5:24:13 GMT -6 cabinetman said:

Apr 20, 2010 20:50:41 GMT -6 sachbvn said:

You know that marine grade stuff? I've never used it - can you thin it with something and then just apply more coats rather than putting on a couple of extra thick, hard to manage, coats?

Thanks,
Zac

Was this your question on thinning or not and what to use for thinning? How difficult would it have been to describe your proposed use.

With never having used it, your friend is trusting you to do the floor of a show truck? IMO, coating exterior wood in a varnish of any kind is a waste of time and money. Spend what it costs for those special "spars" and you'll be refinishing it sooner than you think. With 5-6 coats on, have fun sanding.

It's not news that wood used outside is exposed to all sorts of conditions...moisture changes, heat, cold, and UV. Applying a film finish can sufficiently seal off the wood from it's natural properties. It just won't breathe.

Using an oil finish may not satisfy our needs for a plastic look, but it's a whole lot easier to maintain.

Old school is good until they decide to ignore the facts. I think 8 years speaks for itself. Right Tim?

[cabinetman]

Apr 22, 2010 5:58:24 GMT -6 gomer said:

Old school is good until they decide to ignore the facts. I think 8 years speaks for itself. Right Tim?

Facts? The only fact is how long Tim said his example lasted. Go buy the expensive spars...the chemical companies will love you for it.

[Ruffnek]

Apr 21, 2010 19:56:48 GMT -6 TDHofstetter said:

Apr 21, 2010 15:25:32 GMT -6 Ruffnek said:

Got a pic? I'd be interested to see the condition of that 8 year old Helmsmans.

I'll see if my ex will pass on a pic - I try not to go there any more'n I'm begged to.

LOL, I wasn't aware it was still at your old house. That's okay. I wouldn't wish a visit to the ex on anyone. ;D

I'm gonna keep my Cedar board experiment going on anyway.

Cabby,

You are certainly entitled to your opinion but when you stretch credibility simply in an effort to contradict what I say, you are only making yourself look foolish.

Wood "breathing" is nothing more than the wood absorbing and releasing moisture. It's not a desirable condition. Completely encapsulating the wood to prevent moisture absorption is the most effective way of preserving the wood.

In addition to the application of those "special spars", it's been proven that an epoxy finish laid on first makes the wood even more weather tolerant. In that particular method, the epoxy seals out moisture and the "special spar" finish is primarily to protect the epoxy from UV exposure.

It is a fact that no outdoor finish will last indefinitely. Even the most effective finish, paint, requires routine maintenance. Varnish is the same way as is an oil finish. While the oil is definitely easier to apply and renew, it offers little moisture and virtually no UV protection. It's fine if you like the weathered wood look but as high-end yacht owners know, spar varnish with UV protection is the finish of choice for preserving the color and condition of wood.

But, don't take my word for it. You reside in South Florida - Ft. Lauderdale area isn't it?. Visit some marine centers there and ask them what finish they use on woodwork. You might learn something new.

[cabinetman]

Apr 22, 2010 6:50:35 GMT -6 Ruffnek said:

Cabby,

You are certainly entitled to your opinion but when you stretch credibility simply in an effort to contradict what I say, you are only making yourself look foolish.

Wood "breathing" is nothing more than the wood absorbing and releasing moisture. It's not a desirable condition. Completely encapsulating the wood to prevent moisture absorption is the most effective way of preserving the wood.

In addition to the application of those "special spars", it's been proven that an epoxy finish laid on first makes the wood even more weather tolerant. In that particular method, the epoxy seals out moisture and the "special spar" finish is primarily to protect the epoxy from UV exposure.

It is a fact that no outdoor finish will last indefinitely. Even the most effective finish, paint, requires routine maintenance. Varnish is the same way as is an oil finish. While the oil is definitely easier to apply and renew, it offers little moisture and virtually no UV protection. It's fine if you like the weathered wood look but as high-end yacht owners know, spar varnish with UV protection is the finish of choice for preserving the color and condition of wood.

But, don't take my word for it. You reside in South Florida - Ft. Lauderdale area isn't it?. Visit some marine centers there and ask them what finish they use on woodwork. You might learn something new.

Ruffy,

If it boosts your ego to try to belittle someone, go ahead. Shall we expect some scripture to follow? Yep, we'll just march down to the marine supply store and ask them what finish they recommend. Let me guess...how about Epiphanes. It's expensive and good for business.

High end yacht owners, sure thing, they can also afford to get it refinished as needed. So, a little info on moisture content. Take the wood that has moisture, and seal it. Then expose it to the elements including heat. Well, it can't absorb any moisture (usually) or air, or dispel any moisture or air. So, where does it go. That's right, right into the finish that's encapsulating it.

Paint would be a better protector, and last longer. Paint will get affected, but may not show it like a clear finish will. Spar finishes will always fail, some sooner than later.

Oiled finishes have been used for a long time with great success. The finish itself will not fail other than just needing a cleaning and re-oiling. The wood will retain its integrity.

It's better to discuss what works and what doesn't when you have experience with the products and procedures other than what's discussed on forums. I'm not opposed to learning something new, but that's beyond your reach. ;D

[TDHofstetter]

Might I kick in a little here again?

Since we're talking about an antique truck bed, one that's being put together NICELY (as restorations tend to be) and will be expected to last a very, very long time... and with minimal periodic (especially messy in ANY sense) maintenance... frankly I don't think an oil finish is suited for this application. We're talking linseed, I'm sure. Sure, it'd last like crazy virtually forever if it's reapplied & reapplied & reapplied until it builds into a film... as long as it's never scuffed by "truck stuff" or boots, which'd make it look like bloody crap. If there's much risk of accidentally getting linseed onto the paint inside the truck bed, too, that represents a problem in appearance. Better, I think, to apply a heavy film finish that CAN take some scuffing and will last for a fair long time before another one-shot application (paint can be masked off for that application).

Moisture sealed into the wood should represent no great problem as long as the wood starts at a very low moisture content before finishing so it doesn't develop any great vapor pressure inside the finish shell. Moisture, in and of itself, isn't a problem in wood - wood pilings don't rot off BELOW the surface of the water, they rot off AT the surface of the water, where water & air meet.

I think a high-grade (because it's an antique) marine spar varnish is what's called for here. That's what I'd do if I were restoring a truck and I wanted a wooden bed.

[gomer]

Seems there is always ONE in the crowd. I bet he couldn't wait to show off a truck w/ painted oak bed. Oil a little better but still laughable. Last place for sure. Judges would laugh @ him (as I am). ;D

[cabinetman]

Apr 22, 2010 12:38:32 GMT -6 TDHofstetter said:

I think a high-grade (because it's an antique) marine spar varnish is what's called for here. That's what I'd do if I were restoring a truck and I wanted a wooden bed.

The OP didn't reveal the project up front, but eventually stated the bed wouldn't get used. The discussion seemed planted on the virtues of an expensive film finish and how it would last.

I converted a 3/4T pickup truck to a 8' x 10' flatbed in 1972 using T&G SYP with an oiled finish. That same bed lasted twenty years until I sold it. The wood withstood heavy use and still looked good.

For a display bed and wanting a plastic looking high shine, disregarding how long it will last, I would agree with you that a spar varnish would accomplish that look. Would I do it...no.

[maxwellsmart007]

I don't know how much money is going to be an issue, but if you want it to last a LONG time, look into West Systems epoxy...that's what canoe and kayak builders use on their boats, and they're immersed in water and stored outside...

I used Helmsman's Spar on my adirondak chairs - the finish lasted about two years, but we get some pretty severe weather up here...maybe the cold got to them! On Cody's advice, I got some really good marine varnish last year to do another adirondak, and it still looks brand new, whereas the one I redid in Helsman's has lost a bit of its gloss...

If money was no object, I'd coat them once in Epoxy, and be done with it!
www.westsystem.com/ss/


Just another perspective.

[Ruffnek]

Cab,

FWW #205, May 2009 has a good article titled "The Ultimate Outdoor Finish." They tested five finishes in various climates all over the U.S. to determine which one held up the best. Epoxy followed by Epifanes varnish was the one they deemed the most durable. Their test was both empirical and scientific.

Kerry (ictoos) used that finish on an outdoor project based on their findings and at last report, it still looked new after two years with no maintenance. That's pretty good for any outdoor finish other than paint. An oil finish MIGHT help preserve the wood but it will not preserve the color as it offers no UV protection. Preserving the color is the primary reason I use a finish on outdoor furniture since I use weather resistant woods (Eastern Red Cedar and Cypress). A finish is not needed to protect it from decay. It would last just fine with nothing applied only it would turn silvery gray pretty quickly from sunlight.

The same thing applies to boats. Teak or Mahogany is the wood of choice there and both are naturally resistant to decay. The varnish that they are finished with is for preserving the color because it is high in UV protection.

I'm sure we will just have to agree to disagree but perhaps you can use the above info someday, even if you don't acknowledge that it is correct.

Oh yeah, I'd love to quote you some scripture but we are trying to avoid religious discussions here so I'll let you look it up for yourself. Try Proverbs 1:7.

Have a good day.

[gomer]

Oh yeah, I'd love to quote you some scripture but we are trying to avoid religious discussions here so I'll let you look it up for yourself. Try Proverbs 1:7.

Have a good day

Pure class.

[cabinetman]

Apr 22, 2010 13:58:13 GMT -6 Ruffnek said:

Oh yeah, I'd love to quote you some scripture but we are trying to avoid religious discussions here...

Hallelujah

[TDHofstetter]

Ooo, Cody. In that context, the Hebrew word in question indicates "one who is morally deficient".

[rnemtp3]

This is a link to another forum for trucks. Now remember these guys are more automotive than wood workers but there are some good pics and info. 67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/showthread.php?t=397639&highlight=wood+bed+finish
There is a difference between show truck and taking it back to original specs. I am sure that as long as you tell the guy it won't last forever and how to do the maintenance on it he will be fine with the outcome. You do great work.

[maxwellsmart007]

Neat site - you sold me on Sikkens Cetol Marine, as that Purpleheart is still VERY purple after all that sun exposure!

Andrew

[TDHofstetter]

Purpleheart's a funny animal, though - some mills to a brown color & then goes violent purple. Some mills purple & then fades to brown. Eventually, it all goes brown... although I've got some unfinished decade-old purpleheart in my shop that's still pretty seriously violet...

[sachbvn]

Apr 22, 2010 5:24:13 GMT -6 cabinetman said:

Apr 20, 2010 20:50:41 GMT -6 sachbvn said:

You know that marine grade stuff? I've never used it - can you thin it with something and then just apply more coats rather than putting on a couple of extra thick, hard to manage, coats?

Thanks,
Zac

Was this your question on thinning or not and what to use for thinning? How difficult would it have been to describe your proposed use.

With never having used it, your friend is trusting you to do the floor of a show truck? IMO, coating exterior wood in a varnish of any kind is a waste of time and money. Spend what it costs for those special "spars" and you'll be refinishing it sooner than you think. With 5-6 coats on, have fun sanding.

It's not news that wood used outside is exposed to all sorts of conditions...moisture changes, heat, cold, and UV. Applying a film finish can sufficiently seal off the wood from it's natural properties. It just won't breathe.

Using an oil finish may not satisfy our needs for a plastic look, but it's a whole lot easier to maintain.

Do you realize how much of a rectum you come off as?

I can't believe how long this post has gone on - didn't realize it was still going or I would have asked the question soon.


Zac

[Doug B]

I think he knows Zac

[sachbvn]

I'm not picking a fight here, but I rarely see posts from him - when I do it's usually causing a heated debate - no finished photos. I don't care if someone has been woodworking since Jesus was a baby, if all you do is cause problems you can stay a ww.com

zac

[Doug B]

I hear ya Zac. The good thing is that here at WoW almost everybody is truly interested in woodworking and sharing ideas and experiences...the ones that are here for some other reason should just be ignored...

[cabinetman]

Zac,

You are certainly entitled to your opinion. Personal character attacks might work better in a PM, so as not to cause a derailment of a thread. The ensuing interaction is more like a face to face, which I prefer. Maybe my responses are too direct and need a bit of sugar coating.

I am what one would call reality based. I don't make nonsense posts. Haven't been woodworking quite that long, but likely before you were born. As for what posts I offer projects, many of those 40 - 50 were posted a few years before you joined "the" forum. I apologize for some of those pictures being old and not digital quality, but work is work no matter when it was done. Actually, I'm a better woodworker than a photographer.

I have respect for those with the experience that can teach me something. I like finding out they were right.