Point of Use Tankless Water Heaters

[Beamer]

Hey all

I'm finally getting around to picking out a birthday present (from November) and I think I've decided that I'd sure like hot water in the shop. I got cold, and washin' my hands in the winter sure takes a teeth grittin' - yep, i'm a pansy. So be it

So ... Here's the situation:

Detached garage with plumbing to it. The house is 30+ feet away and it's nearly all concrete between 'em. As much as I'd like natural gas out there, it ain't gonna happen. Just ain't an option, I'm afraid

So - electric is my preference. I read Kerry's thread about them not being as efficient as gas. That's okay for me. It's not a high-usage item and I'm fine with electric. My heater's electric and would only cost me about $.80/mo to run full blast 24/7 - and the most it's ever ran is about 45 minutes at full bore in a single day. Cost ain't that big a deal.

Ain't much chance of running a hot line from the existing WH. Ain't much chance of running gas to the shop. I'm not sure I could be sold on propane, either, but my ears are half open on that one. If it's worthwhile, perhaps I could be convinced.

Dang limited, ain't it???

So - of the electric tankless point of use water heaters out there, whatcha folks figure? I doubt i'd need more than 1gpm for my limited use. Just a shop sink for washing hands and warm water for my veneer glue and whatnot. It ain't gotta be boiling, and i do wanna be able to mix in some cold sometimes to dial in the right temp.

I see lots a Bosch ones - like this:

www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B0013FBVLS/

This one appeals to me because it's only a 240v 30a circuit and looks to be more than plenty of capacity.

They also have this one:

www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0006VOR3O/

But I wonder if being 120v is underkill. That it includes a "flow limiting aerator" makes me really wonder if i'll like that at all. Though, I dunno because i haven't experienced anything like it before. If someone's got something like one of these, i'd consider it.

Then there's brands ... goin over Ebay, I see lots of 'em. Like the Eco 6:

cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=360208844785

It's similar to the first Bosch power-wise. Is it a good brand?

Rinnai doesn't offer any 'lectric ones, unfortunately.

There's also this one:

cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260562596754

Titan? Similar power specs again and probably overkill for my needs. Are they good?

At first I thought the field was just Bosch ... But then I started checking ebay. I like to know what i'm buying when i shop on ebay, though, and I clearly dunno what i'm buying just yet.

I do plan to talk to a few local plumbers and see what they say. Trouble is catching 'em while i'm not working and they are. Not alotta places like that open on saturdays around here.

So - whatcha say?

[kilroy530]

Jason,
I work for a Gas company here in Texas, and the majority of tankless I have seen are Rinnai. Of course as you have discovered, they dont offer an electric one. I have only seen Bosch in the electric type. I did see an Ariston point-of-use type in a shop. I believe those are made by Bosch also. I asked the guy about it, and he said it worked great, for what he needed it for. I found a link for it at.

www.tanklesswaterheatersdirect.com/shop/tanklesswaterheaters/ariston/aristonindex.htm

Good luck, and sorry I dont have much insight to the electric ones.

[imahic]

My son had a rinnai had his last house and loved it. Like you, from what I have been told, the electric is not very economical, but as you say, for what you are going to be using it shouldn't be that big of a deal. I don't have hot water in my shop either but now you have me thinking I might want to look into the same thing.

Eight cents for running your heater all month? Damn, you must have really cheap electric rates up your way.

[Beamer]

No no - EIGHTY cents per DAY

Well I've run across another brand that seems to have a LARGE offering. Stiebel Eltron.

It looks like a number of either this line:

www.stiebel-eltron-usa.com/mini.html

or this one:

www.stiebel-eltron-usa.com/dhc.html

Would suffice.

I'm thinking that capacity-wise, i don't need nothin' fancy. 1gpm would likely be PLENTY. I doubt i'd use more'n half a gallon at any one use normally. Maybe a dozen times a month, at most.

Yeah - i know 'lectric ain't the best heat option in water OR air - but it's what i have and I don't think i could be talked into running natural gas to the shop (which is just a 2-car garage, to the rest of the world).

Anyone know much about Stiebel Eltron?

[imahic]

Ah! Ok, that still sounds pretty cheap. I was wondering it that was a typo or not or whether I was reading it wrong.

[fredbelknap]

Beamer you might check out a small water heater like they use in small trailers. They are small but would supply enough hot water for what you need. I have used and been around quite a few and they seem to work ok. I'm thinking like for office trailers on construction sites. Just a thought.

[oakridgeboy]

Beamer,if all you want HW for is to wash face and hands-have you thought about just getting the biggest elec. kettle you can find? Just my .02 !
Mike

[Beamer]

*nod*

I have kinda pondered the other ways to heat up water ... but part of my desire is the convenience of just havin' a hot water tap ... bein' able to mix the hot and cold and have it flow really appeals to me.

The biggest reason I have shied away from tanks is that i could go 2 months without need'n any hot water and I just have it in my head that 1) keepin' that water hot for that long would be kinda wasteful, even with a really well insulated tank. And 2) the space they take up is a bit more than I think I'll have available. I'd hate to take up a cabinet for that. Also, is it a good idea to have water sit in a tank being kept warm for that long?

The Stiebel ones look really promising - i just dunno how reputable they are. Maybe I can find some plumbing forums and get an idea of the general opinion on 'em.

Thanks for the thoughts, fellas! Keep 'em comin

[TDHofstetter]

I'm thinkin'... if your shop was up here in the north, you'd NOT want a propane tankless. NOT NOT. The direct-vent ones (pretty muchly all of 'em) have issues with freezing 'cause the cold air draws through 'em whether they're lit or not. They're much better-suited for warmer climes.

Now... 'lectric is viable for you, and really not a bad option, since you won't be using water by the barrel out there. Tank or tankless, that's the question. Tankless is more expensive for toolup, less expensive in the long run. How long ya gonna' live in a place where you don't have enough room for a milling machine & a '32 Ford couple in baskets & boxes, frame butt-up, motor on stand? Long enough to recoup the toolup on a tankless?

A small tank-type (you can get 10-gallon (or smaller) one that runs on 120V 30A is available, but it takes all day to warm up. You COULD install a motor starter upstream in the power line to shut it off for some periods of time, say overnight except Friday & Saturday nights. They really don't leak a whole lot of heat, though, especially with a good heavy blanket on 'em... and you can blanket 'em really heavily when they're 'lectric.

Now... if you were to definitely look hard at the tankless, I'd say shoot for a well-known brand like the Bosch. You're confident in parts (heating element, anode) availability that way.

[Beamer]

Well after some deliberation and talkin' to a plumber today ... And thanks to Fred's suggestion .. I may well go with a small tank style one. 120v 20a circuits really did me over. The closest tankless that runs on 120v is a joke - and is 30a - and it has a special little flow limiting aerator that i don't trust. The closest thing to get the same kinda water performance would probably take a 240v 30a circuit at minimum and still might not do a good enough job for me in the long run.

So ... now i'm leanin little 6 gallon tank wh. Electric. I think that's my best bet ...

Question ... can you plumb that overflow thingy into the drain system somehow? Next best would be just right outside, but i'd like to poke as few holes in the exterior walls as possible.

Now i guess it comes down to brand of teenytanks ... HD here has GE. Lowes has Whirlpool - i'm unfamiliar enough to wonder about either brand ... Whatcha guys recon?

[TDHofstetter]

Pretty much any of the common name brands will be about the same - comes down to the Deal of the Day and what they cover under warranty. They're about as simple as bone & stone, them 'lectric tank-type water heaters - ain't nothin' in 'em except a thermostat, a heating element, and (if equipped) an anode.

You can plumb the blowoff valve into any sort of drain - floor drain, out through the wall, into the sewer / septic, anything. With good luck, it'll NEVER EVER see water. It's there only to keep your butt in one piece if something really nasty happens, which it's very unlikely to do.

If ya like, you might even consider a SMALLER one than 6 gallons if you can find one. I've taken a shower (complete with shampoo with less than three gallons of tepid solar-heated water...

...which is ALSO something to consider, at least in passing. Solar's CHEAP to run. Easy to rig, too... especially when ya don't need huge quantities of crazy-hot water. Black five-gallon bucket on the roof would do it.

[Beamer]

Funny you should mention smaller .. they have a 2.5gallon one - real teeny ... smaller'n an igloo cooler ... almost cute ...

I might consider that just for the space savings. I'll have to look for a way to rig up the blowoff into the existing drain - that'd be fantastically convenient

[TDHofstetter]

Garden hose.

The teeny ones will have quicker recovery, too. How long does it take a coffeemaker to pump up a carafe of coffee? Fifteen minutes, maybe? That's... uhhhh... uhhh... twelve cups, right? Lessee. Hundred ounces. Gallon is pretty nearly that - about 128 ounces. So... 2-1/2 gallons would be 320 gallons, so recovery time would be less than the time it takes to brew three full pots of coffee (we're not boiling the water in the heater, just raising it about 70F degrees to 120F). That'd be pretty quick recovery - 1/4 of the time it takes to recover a ten-gallon water heater.

[Beamer]

Ok ... after HOURS of research ... i think i'm back to the beginning device that Stretch pointed out to me almost 3 months ago ...

www.amazon.com/dp/B0006GVO12/

That one has LOTS of happy owners and it's SUPER cheap. Now if I can just find it locally.

[Joe Lyddon]

Looks like a nice & sweet lil unit!

I think I'd put it on it's own circuit though...
... you don't want to be continuously resetting breakers...
(you could try it without... and run it if needed.)

[Beamer]

*nod*

I was thinkin' about doin that.

Right nearby, I have a very light 120v circuit that'd be easy to tap and run a box down under the sink for. If it turns out to need its own (the unit only draws 12.5a when at full tilt), this tap would be easily fed from above. The existing line is already in the attic, and I've gotta break the drywall to run the plumbing anyway. Running fresh wouldn't be a big deal after the fact - just a j-box up in the attic to untap the tapped line (there's already a J-box there for that, too)

I think for a simple luxury item, $160 seems like a can't-miss

[Joe Lyddon]

Yes, that does sound like a SWEET deal...
... makes you wonder why you didn't ask sooner!

I'm glad I found out about it too!
... good to know...