jb34
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Post by jb34 on Mar 10, 2010 14:55:48 GMT -6
So I have been sharpening my chisels but I am not happy with how sharp I am getting them. Or how unsharp actually. My planes are just horrible so I need to go another route on my sharpening. Time to invest. I can't afford a fancy wheel sharpener I am sure though. Thinking of investing a 2 sided japanese water stone. 800 grit on one side and 6000 on the other. I should have got something like this long ago. What advice, suggestions, expertise can you offer? Am I going in a good route? Very frustrated with not getting my stuff sharpened well enough. Thank you.
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Beamer
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Post by Beamer on Mar 10, 2010 15:08:34 GMT -6
Have you got a honing guide?
What are you using now?
Those two things first ... a stone certainly can be the way to go, but there are TONS of ways to end up with a shiverin' cat when it comes to sharpening. I had to try various methods before I decided on what I liked. Starting with cheapest and working my way up, I finally landed on stones - i use Shapton 1000 and 8000 grit stones - it's a bit of a leap going that far without pausing at the 4000 grit range, I must say - and plan to slip one of those in someday.
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Post by TDHofstetter on Mar 10, 2010 15:11:15 GMT -6
I've got a waterstone - I keep it carefully protected when it's not in use, 'cause it's pretty precious.
Most of the time, though, I ScarySharp with sandpaper. ScarySharp really works WELL, and it needs no protection at all. Over the really long run, it can get a little expensive, though. Not sure which is more expensive - Japanese waterstones or high-grit silicon-carbide sandpaper.
If you get a waterstone, be prepared to get another kind of stone to live with it - that'd be your flattening stone. Waterstones are SOFT, and they hollow out quickly & easily. You have to flatten 'em pretty often.
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jb34
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Post by jb34 on Mar 10, 2010 15:23:28 GMT -6
Have a sanding block that is more for knives and it not sufficient for them even. Then tried sand paper. Tried my angle grinder way back when. Yeah that didn't work out so well. But all in the learning process. You all cringed there and I would now too. I have failed to do what I should in this area while having less problems investing in tools and wood and whatever else i need for woodworking. Yes I do know a dull chisels is worthless so like I said should have made an investment here long ago. This is more of a problem with my planes than my chisels.
I see guys cut through end grain like its butter and think yeah I am deficiant in my sharpening methods and my stuff sucks compared to that.
Wow quick answers. Think i am ready for the 2 sided water stone than. Thank you guys.
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sawduster
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Post by sawduster on Mar 10, 2010 15:39:33 GMT -6
Sharpening is a huge can of worms with all sorts of variables. The bottom line though, is that you want to create two geometric planes that intersect at an angle to each other forming an imaginary line.
My personal preference for sharpening media are water stones. They cut much faster than oil stones, but they also need more attention and maintenance than the harder oil stones. The "Scary Sharp" system, touted throughout the internet, is also a good system, especially if you don't have a ton of tools to sharpen. If you've got lots of tools to maintain, the cost of the sandpaper can outweigh the cost of good stones which will last a lot longer.
I would not recommend, from personal experience, getting a two sided water stone. It is too easy with those to contaminate the finer stone with grit from the courser one. Besides, 800 to 6000 is a pretty hefty jump, and you might find yourself spending an inordinate amount of time removing the scratches from the 800 grit with the 6000.
I used the Scary Sharp system in conjunction with water stones as I built my collection of water stones, starting with courser grit stones and eventually working up to an 8000 grit stone. The two systems are similar enough and compatible, since you're using water to flush away the slurry with both systems.
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sawduster
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Post by sawduster on Mar 10, 2010 15:56:50 GMT -6
Okay, now we've got a starting point. I suck at using a grinder for removing little bits of metal accurately and without burning the metal. If you are more skilled than me at that, then the grinder is a good starting place for creating an accurate bevel on your stuff. Lots of folks swear by that hollow grind and it does have its merits.
I use one of a couple of different sharpening guides on an old bench top belt sander for creating a new bevel. Since the tool is already in the guide, I will continue using it for the initial sharpening and honing working up through the grits. The idea, like I said above, is to create two geometric planes, one the back of the blade and the other the bevel, and then refine them so that their intersection is an imaginary line (or as near as you can).
But before you begin working on the bevel, you want to get about a half inch of the back of the chisel or plane iron flat at the business end. When you create the bevel, check the back of the blade frequently for a wire edge to develop. Once that wire edge extends across the width of the blade, it is time to start working through the grits, polishing the bevel with attention to the very edge. As you work through the grits keeping the bevel flat on the sharpening media you want to remove the scratches from the previous grit, replacing them with new smaller scratches. Initially, you'll also want to flip the blade over, lay the back flat on the stone and polish the back as well. After this initial polishing of the back, you should only need to use your highest grit media on the back alternating between the bevel and back until the wire edge is gone.
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jb34
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Post by jb34 on Mar 10, 2010 17:31:14 GMT -6
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sawduster
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Post by sawduster on Mar 10, 2010 18:13:02 GMT -6
Arkansas Stones are actually oil stones, though I know of people who use them with water instead, and one of the old timers who used to post some very good tutorials stored his Arkansas Stones in kerosene and used that to wash the used up grit and metal from the stones. That makes better sense to me than using oil which lubricates as well as has a tendency to seep into the stones, dry, and minimize the effect of the abrasives on your tools. Regardless, the Arkansas stones to do cut as fast as water stones. If I were you, I'd look into getting set up with the Scary Sharp method using wet/dry sandpaper and add water stones as your pocket book allows. As far as a honing guide goes, this one or similar for less than $15.00 is a great investment.  Also, here is a link to the Wikipedia article on scary sharp. |
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Post by TDHofstetter on Mar 10, 2010 18:14:11 GMT -6
Arkansas stones are far, far harder than Japanese water stones. They're not as sharp, either (crystals are much rounder in shape), but they stay flat a VERY LONG TIME because they're so hard. You can maybe put on as good an edge or better with Arkansas stones, but it takes a lot of patience to get'er done. They're AWFUL for initial edge shaping because it takes so many strokes, but they're EXCELLENT for final polishing provided you leave your honing guide set up exactly the same as you move to it for that operation.
Arkansas stones are oilstones, best used with a light detergent oil instead of water. If you move from a waterstone to an oilstone for final polishing, you MUST dry off the tool being sharpened before you get there. Otherwise, some water will get into your stone where you don't want it to be.
Diamonds are a very good way to flatten either type of stone. A "diafold" is also a good way to work up a pocketknife to a sharp edge; it's fast & clean.
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sawduster
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Post by sawduster on Mar 10, 2010 18:18:18 GMT -6
One caution about diamond stones. Good ones will cost you a bit more than those shown in that link, and cheap ones don't last worth a darn.
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Post by TDHofstetter on Mar 10, 2010 18:30:29 GMT -6
True. Years ago, I actually bought a set of three of those skinny ones shown... it took nearly no time at all for two the steel plates to separate from the plastic substrate. After they did, they were worthless for "real" sharpening. No way to glue it back down good & flat, either.
The GOOD diamond stones are built very different, with the plastic cast directly onto and into the perforated steel surface. The surface is then flattened and diamonds bonded to it. They simply DON'T come apart, and they're VERY FLAT. I've got a red-green diafold, which I've used to touch up router bits (green side). The flatness matches the flatness of the gullets (surface-ground), and the finish is mirrory.
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Joe Lyddon
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Post by Joe Lyddon on Mar 10, 2010 19:58:21 GMT -6
I also like the Scary Sharp method... www.woodworkstuff.net/scary.htmlThe Rockler honing guide DOES leave something to be desired... I find it hard to set it at a given angle... but once done, works pretty well if you don't 'tilt' it very much. I think I'm going to try the Veritas honing guide some day... I don't go through ALL those grits... I just use 4 grits... 150 or 120 through 600 or 800... Satisfies me... Cuts hair with no problem when done... A quick honing on the finest setting gets it back in shape for the quick hit n run... ;D |
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jb34
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Post by jb34 on Mar 11, 2010 9:38:48 GMT -6
Thanks you again guys. this has all been very valuable information for me. Yeah I knew those were pretty cheap diamond stones. I expected to hear negatives on them. But was not sure exactly what that would be. Going with the japanese stones and that is mostly because of what I got from you guys who I knew would know much more about this than me. I have a pretty good warm fuzzy about it now and what I need to do to get a good edge. I mean mine are bad. I also need to invest more time in sharpening instead of just diving right in. I have mentioned time is an issue for me so when I get time I do plan things out well. But tool preperation, well I have been more in the mindframe of lets dive in. Pretty worthess to do that if your tools are not sharp enough but I didn't have the proper shapening equipment. I get them sharp enough to get stuff done. But cutting end grain like butter and razor sharp. That isn't what I have. So i am going for a japanese stone and add to my sharpening equipment as I can. But I am confident now that this will be a really good start. Thank you.
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Mark
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Post by Mark on Mar 11, 2010 23:36:14 GMT -6
I've got a waterstone - I keep it carefully protected when it's not in use, 'cause it's pretty precious. Most of the time, though, I ScarySharp with sandpaper. ScarySharp really works WELL, and it needs no protection at all. Over the really long run, it can get a little expensive, though. Not sure which is more expensive - Japanese waterstones or high-grit silicon-carbide sandpaper. If you get a waterstone, be prepared to get another kind of stone to live with it - that'd be your flattening stone. Waterstones are SOFT, and they hollow out quickly & easily. You have to flatten 'em pretty often. I use waterstones, and supplement them with a nagura stone. That one, when rubbed on the sharpening stone, creates a slurry of abrasive that allows the waterstone to cut more freely. I keep my waterstones flat, by rubbing them on wet-dry sandpaper stuck to a 12"X12" piece of granite counter tile. Flat and smooth - wet it, then lay the wet paper on it, then move the stone around in a figure-eight to flatten it. I use the fancy veritas honing guide to keep the honed angle true, but the simpler roller-type guides likely work as well. Mark |
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sawduster
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Post by sawduster on Mar 12, 2010 7:59:21 GMT -6
Cinder blocks are amazingly flat and a very decent abrasive for flattening water stones. Works pretty fast.
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Post by TDHofstetter on Mar 12, 2010 23:20:09 GMT -6
Cinder blocks are amazingly flat and a very decent abrasive for flattening water stones. Works pretty fast. Yeah, but my arms get tired after a while - it takes a lot of energy to rub an 80-pound concrete block back & forth at chest level.  |
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Beamer
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Post by Beamer on Mar 12, 2010 23:29:22 GMT -6
LOL!!!!!!! Oh that was nice ... just flat out nice  |
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sawduster
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Post by sawduster on Mar 13, 2010 8:33:33 GMT -6
Cinder blocks are amazingly flat and a very decent abrasive for flattening water stones. Works pretty fast. Yeah, but my arms get tired after a while - it takes a lot of energy to rub an 80-pound concrete block back & forth at chest level. That problem can be cured by using hollow core blocks made using clinker as the aggregate instead of the high density solid core blocks. ;D |
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jb34
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Post by jb34 on Mar 15, 2010 9:42:51 GMT -6
spent a lot of time sharpening my hand plane saturday. Sure is nice to hand plane when you get things sharp enough. worked fine bfore but a lot more fun when you take more time on the front end. I didn't want to stop planing.
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Joe Lyddon
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Post by Joe Lyddon on Mar 15, 2010 11:50:17 GMT -6
OK Joel,
What methods did you finally settle on?
What method did you use on your plane blade? ;D
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