SS Niles stoppers - question - please help.

[sachbvn]

So - I bought two SS Niles stoppers from Woodturningz because I wanted to try them before I placed an order through Ruth. (No sense paying shipping from two places and I already had a WT order)

I like the stoppers, very small - solid, they look and feel great, and I love the story about how they came to be and how they are made.

Problem....they have a stationary stud that attaches the stopper to the blank. This is fine, maybe even desirable for some. This doesn't work for me, and here's why:

For some reason, I keep (not always, but often times) getting a small gap around where the stopper meets the blank. What I do now is - unscrew the metal stopper from the stud, screw the stud into the blank a little farther with some vice grips and then screw the stopper back on the stud, and this creates a nice flush fit. Looks great. Problem - can't do that if the stud is stationary. I tried the SS Niles stopper on a blank that had previously had a different stopper in it - yep, there's a small gap.

I cut the blanks on the TS at 90 degrees. I drill the hole with my DP, using a centering vice, and as far as I can tell - the drill bit is 90 degrees, perpendicular to the blank when I drill the hole. I think tap the blank using a tap, prior to using my PSI chuck.

What the hell am I doing wrong??? I want to use the SS Niles stoppers - but I can't unless I can get this gap problem solved.


Thanks,
Zac

[Doug B]

Couple of things to try Zac. If the gap is all the way around the stopper, then you just need to drill deeper and/or tap the hole before installing. For some reason, some stoppers have a longer threaded stud than others do and will require a deeper hole to be drilled.

If you are having trouble with the hole not being perpendicular to the blank bottom (gap varies in width and the wood touches the stopper in one spot) then again drill and tap the hole deeper than usual, then square up the bottom of the wood blank while it is on the lathe using a parting tool. I have a very thin parting tool (I think 1/16th inch wide) that works well for doing that kind of thing.

I got the Ruth Niles stopper mandrel when I got my first stoppers from Ruth, so I don't know if they might work different with the other type of stopper mandrels.

[Ruffnek]

Drill the hole deeper? Blow the sawdust out of the hole?

Seriously, if the gap is even all the way around, the stud is bottoming out in the hole before the blank contacts the stopper.

If the gap is only on one side, then the hole is angled or the blank is not cut square.

[sachbvn]

The gap is only on part of the blank/stopper. Seriously, I'm not sure how the hole can be getting drilled crooked - I've checked the bit with a square and is DANG close to perpendicular, part of the problem is it's hard to reference such a small piece of wood. It may even be spot on square, but like I said - hard to get the square under the chuck but still on the blank. I should get a tiny engineer's square for this kinda thing.

I can play around more with the drilling the hole.... The blanks are being cut on the TS so I really don't think the top being flat is the issue.... it has to be when I'm drilling the hole.

Since we had that talk about whether or not DP speed effects a bit going crooked in the wood or not - I upped the speed significantly....we'll see if that helps.


Zac

[boodrow]

Zac ive been there and done that , I use my miter saw to square up the end that will recieve the stopper. Another prob u mite be havin is when u drill it on the drill press is the wood and bit at the correct angle? If not u have a gaposus. Again been there and done that. I use a small machinist square on the drill press to get it all square and havent had a prob in a coons aga with it.
Boodrow

[boodrow]

Zac one thing I forgot to mention , is some of the stoppers are not drilled square. The ones Ive bought from Craft Supplies are generally good , but I got prob 20 I need to return to them. The way to check is fore u glue up try another stopper. If its square ur stopper is the prob.
I have not had this prob with the Niles stoppers , but havent used that many either.
Boodrow

[sachbvn]

Well guys - I think I may have found my problem.

I am using my TS to cut these blanks to length..... the fence is square to the blade..... BUT - I'm assuming that the edge of the blank spindle that is referencing the fence is also square.... or - that once I put it into the self-centering vice, it remains square.... this is not the case! I took the stopper and screwed it into a blank I had already drilled and tapped.... it was "high" on one side, well - it appeared to be by how the stopper didn't sit flush. When I unscrewed the stopper and took a combo square to the blank, it confirms - one side is high, and that is the side where the stopper was hitting first - leaving a gap on the other side.

SO.... my plan of attack - I am going to run all four sides through the planer just a tad to touch them up. I don't have a jointer or I'd use that. This should help.... oh - btw - I mean, run all four sides of the SPINDLE through the planer, NOT the individual blanks (could you imagine that disaster???)

Any other ideas?

Ideas on how I can square up the blanks that I already have cut, drilled, and tapped? I use the PSI chuck so..... it won't let me square the blank all the way down to the drilled hole.... hmm.... well - I could turn the blank between two centers and then square the end and go back and remove the center marks when I reattach the the blank to the PSI chuck.

Any other ideas??

Thanks!
Zac

[boodrow]

Zac to simplify ur prob , just make sure the mandrel side is flush and square. If im readin this post rite thats all u need to do. Like I said in the last post , I use my miter saw to cut the blank square.
Boodrow

[boodrow]

One other thing , it dont matter what the tail stock side looks like , as long as the stopper end is square it will take care of the turnin of the rest of the blank.
Boodrow

[TDHofstetter]

Feb 26, 2010 19:50:22 GMT -6 sachbvn said:

Well guys - I think I may have found my problem.

I am using my TS to cut these blanks to length..... the fence is square to the blade..... BUT - I'm assuming that the edge of the blank spindle that is referencing the fence is also square.... or - that once I put it into the self-centering vice, it remains square.... this is not the case! I took the stopper and screwed it into a blank I had already drilled and tapped.... it was "high" on one side, well - it appeared to be by how the stopper didn't sit flush. When I unscrewed the stopper and took a combo square to the blank, it confirms - one side is high, and that is the side where the stopper was hitting first - leaving a gap on the other side.

SO.... my plan of attack - I am going to run all four sides through the planer just a tad to touch them up. I don't have a jointer or I'd use that. This should help.... oh - btw - I mean, run all four sides of the SPINDLE through the planer, NOT the individual blanks (could you imagine that disaster???)

Any other ideas?

Ideas on how I can square up the blanks that I already have cut, drilled, and tapped? I use the PSI chuck so..... it won't let me square the blank all the way down to the drilled hole.... hmm.... well - I could turn the blank between two centers and then square the end and go back and remove the center marks when I reattach the the blank to the PSI chuck.

Any other ideas??

Thanks!
Zac

MAN am I glad you clarified that! I was puckerin' up & hunkerin' down clear out here in Vermont 'cause the fallout could go ANYPLACE!

Boo's right - you can have a knobbly ol' blank with warts every which direction & a bend at the end, and as long as you true up the mandrel end before it's fully tightened on the mandrel, it'll fit the stopper.

[Mark]

Zac,

I chuck the blank, face the end, drill the hole, and hand-tap all before removing the blank from the lathe. the tapping is the tricky part, to keep the tap parallel to the axis of the hole. My t-handled tap wrench has an invert cone on the handle end, which I rest on the closed jacobs chuck, in order to keep the axes all on the same line. Works great. Had tried the DP approach, but it took more fixtures than I had at the time.

Thanks,
Mark

[Doug B]

For the existing ones that you want to true up, you can take the metal bushing off the mandrel and replace it with a smaller diameter one to get you closer to the mandrel threads. I have made my own out of a piece of plastic before and it worked well. True it up right down to the threads of the mandrel - just be careful when you get close. I have actually touched (barely) the threads with the parting tool and it did not damage the parting tool or the threads. Then you can easily sand off the rest of the waste. But, you have to have the hole deep enough so that it will not bottom out - I drill about 7/8" and tap that deep too - it does not hurt to have a void inside the bottle stopper when it gets put together.

It does help to have that narrow parting tool so you don't lose too much of the blank. This looks very similar to the one I have: www.pennstateind.com/store/LCTEN.html

Worst case (and I have done this a few times) you can mark your blank where it is touching with pencil and sand down that spot on a belt sander (hang on to that blank it can get snatched right out of your hand if you are not careful) Then re-assemble, mark again where it touches and sand again...keep doing that until you get a satisfactory fit.

One last comment...I keep the blank secured in the vise after it gets drilled and tap it right away. You need to make sure you keep the tap perpendicular to the blank as you start tapping the blank, and that is the easiest way I have found to do that.

When I do my pine cone bottle stoppers they are nowhere close to being square so I had to come up with a way to do them. I can easily make sure my pen vise jaws are square to the drill bit. then it is just a matter of making sure that the bottle stopper blank is lined up so the bottom is completely level with the top of both pen vise jaws - I know that will also be square to the drill bit. With irregular shapes like the pine cones, I place a straight edge across the vise jaws and bring the bottom of the pine cone blank flush - it takes longer to describe it than to actually do it ;D

I hope that made sense

[sdb777]

Zac,

Question for you....
Does the finished stopper top sit flat on the table after your done turning it? No gaps.....

What kinf of threads are you dealing with on the stopper screw-in? Are the screws-in pieces straight? Are the threads on the screw-in piece coarse?


Scott (maybe your good and the item bad) B

[sachbvn]

Doug,

You mention "replacing the metal bushing off the mandrel with a smaller diameter one" I use the PSI bottle stopper chuck which is a solid piece of metal. What kind of mandrel are you talking about? Are you referring to the Ruth Niles mandrel? I do not have that, only the PSI one. I really should get the Ruth Niles one because it will fit the stopper diameter - but as far as now, I don't have one.


Scott - I'm not really following your questions.

Not sure what the top would have to do with a gap around the bottom where the stopper screws into place.

The stopper is in two pieces. The metal stopper "base" which has the rubber rings that plug the wine bottle, and a threaded stud that is removable on some stoppers, however the stud in the SS Niles stoppers is made from one solid piece of SS - they are formed onto the same piece of SS that the stopper "base" is made from.

On the two pieces stoppers - the threads that go into the wood are coarse.... 3/8" - 16 tpi I think. The threads that screw into the "base" of the stopper are finer. Not sure the tpi.



Zac

[TDHofstetter]

I wonder... is your tap following the drilled hole down? It's easy to tap a little angled.

To tap a drilled hole, don't disturb any of the setup except to remove the drill bit. Unplug the drill press (because it's SO easy to forget & turn it on) and chuck the tap in the drill chuck. Wind it down against the work and turn the chuck BY HAND (it's really easy) until the tap is well into the wood - several threads worth. THEN you can unchuck the tap & use a tap wrench; it'll follow those first few threads just fine.

That's how ya keep from breaking a #0 or other teeny tap when you're tapping hard steel, too. That or pilot the back of the tap wrench with a little cone center.

[Doug B]

Feb 27, 2010 7:25:57 GMT -6 sachbvn said:

Doug,

You mention "replacing the metal bushing off the mandrel with a smaller diameter one" I use the PSI bottle stopper chuck which is a solid piece of metal. What kind of mandrel are you talking about? Are you referring to the Ruth Niles mandrel? I do not have that, only the PSI one. I really should get the Ruth Niles one because it will fit the stopper diameter - but as far as now, I don't have one.

Zac

I have 3 BS mandrels now, and I thought the PSI one was the one that has a metal bushing that comes off. The Niles mandrel is a solid piece but it has a much smaller diameter to turn to than the other mandrels.

At any rate, you can square the bottom of the stopper blank while it is on the mandrel with a parting tool if you want to. That is the main thing I was trying to say. If you have a mandrel with the removable bushing it just makes it easier to do. I also like Marks idea about truing up the blank using a chuck first, but that adds a lot of extra time and effort and may not always solve the problem.

And, like Boodrow, I use the miter saw to square the end of the blank to the sides before drilling - that is critical if you are going to use the pen vise to hold the blank while drilling - the end of the blank you are drilling had better be square to the sides of the blank or you will not get a good fit. I would worry about the tapping of the hole too - I have heard that is critical too - but I just do it by eye - you can pretty easily keep the tap perpendicular to the blank if you still have the blank clamped in the pen vise.

Well, you have a lot of things to try,,,it is going to be interesting to see what you end up doing to solve the problem. I'm looking forward to seeing your solution.

[TDHofstetter]

One more thing that might work, and work well.

When you vise up the blank to drill & tap... you don't have to stop there. It may or may not be square in the vise - doesn't matter... IF.

Here's the thought. After you drill the hole (or before, if you like), chuck up a large Forstner bit. Use it to true up the top surface of the blank. Now the top surface is guaranteed to be true to the hole.

[sdb777]

Just goes to show you I shouldn't type before the second cup of coffee!

Was wanting to find out if your turned piece sits flat on a table...no gaps. If it does, then I would suspect that the threads on the screw that goes into the turned piece is either not straight, or is 'pulling' it off-center. This would be even more exaggerated if the TPI is larger.....correct?


Scott (still drinking coffee) B

[Doug B]

Feb 27, 2010 15:54:11 GMT -6 TDHofstetter said:

One more thing that might work, and work well.

When you vise up the blank to drill & tap... you don't have to stop there. It may or may not be square in the vise - doesn't matter... IF.

Here's the thought. After you drill the hole (or before, if you like), chuck up a large Forstner bit. Use it to true up the top surface of the blank. Now the top surface is guaranteed to be true to the hole.

Ooh Tim! I like your solution a lot! That could very well be the easiest, quickest, simplest way to make sure you have a square bottom on your bottle stoppers It's almost the same as using a barrel trimmer in the drill press on pen blanks - I do that all the time. Why didn't I think of that?!?!!?!

I have a feeling that your metal working background was fertile ground for that solution - don't you metal heads use a milling machine to surface something perfectly flat? Makes sense when you get out of the box and view the drill press as being capable of doing more than just drilling holes

[TDHofstetter]

We do...

I was trying to think of a way to tram the blank to the drill press... and suddenly realized there wasn't any reason to tram it if it could just be surface-planed in place. Then I got to thinking about flycutters, and whingo a Forstner bit is the ULTIMATE flycutter.