New shop - finishing the basement

[lexrex]

Here's where I'll be posting initial questions and progress.

I have a 12 course unfinished basement with a concrete floor, the joists are glue lam I beams. I have roughly 500 sq. feet and was thinking I'd do two HVAC runs in addition to my electric.

I will seal the floor (at a minimum), seal the walls, frame, wire, plumb for a sink, insulate and hang sheet rock. I'll have someone finish the rock. I am also not sure about the ceiling, that will be an adventure.

Initial questions:

1) My goal is to keep as much dust as possible out of the rest of the house. Should I be running an HVAC register in there? I have a dust collector for which I will upgrade to a canister filter and I will also install an air cleaner.

2) What should I seal the floors and walls with? The basement was poured over stone, 10 mil plastic, and lots of drains. I don't have any water problems so far but it hasn't been that long. The gutters are doing their job.

3) Rigid foam insulation, fiberglas bats, or both? What is the best type of insulation for sound dampening?

4) Does anyone have advice for working with PEX? Have you used the Sharkbite fittings? It seems easier than it should be

5) What are the pros and cons of attaching the bottom plate with tapcons, nails, other?

6) I was thinking of putting a double 36" doors as entry (in case of new tools coming in). a) do I need exterior doors to provide a good seal? b) how do I frame a double door opening? Same as single or do I need to do something special?

More later

[lexrex]

One more:

7) will going with 5/8 drywall over 1/2 give me more holding strength?

[TDHofstetter]

Initial answers :

I'd say... run it without the HVAC for four full seasons before you make that decision. In short, don't put one in behind sheetrock. If you put one in, surface-mount it. You may find yourself entirely comfortable in there without it.

Before you seal the floors & walls, test 'em first for moisture. Duct-tape some plastic film flat against the floor and against each wall - a 12" square will do fine for each "patch". 24 hours later, peel the patches off & feel them. If they're wet, I'd recommend that you NOT try to seal the 'crete because hydraulic pressure will push water through your sealant almost as if it wasn't there. If the patches are dry... there may be very little reason to seal except to keep the 'crete from dusting. I've never sealed, except for a showroom floor (stoned for a week afterwards), and I've got no idea what they used but it sure looked SHINY.

Insulation... it sounds like you're asking about ceiling (floor overhead) insulation between the joists. Fiberglass, thickness-rated to MATCH the joist height, is what I'd start with. Don't oversize it, because compressed insulation actually loses R-value. For extra sound barrier, hang polyisocyanurate foam board (the foil-faced stuff) across the joists. That gives you a reflective ceiling, too, for better light. That combination is amazing for its sound-deadening qualities.

I despise PEX. Period. Especially where it's buried in walls or under floors. It'll go, sooner or later (ten years is a good time to start expecting problems), and when it does it's a ^%&^% to fix. Go copper, once and forever. Teach yourself how to sweat copper fittings & you'll have a life skill.

There's not much to say about the sill plate... powder nails (especially if they follow construction adhesive) are virtually forever. If you ever remove the wall, you have to beat the nails over till they snap off... but you can only do that after you've destroyed the sill plate. Anchor bolts are a lot harder to put in, since they require drilling into concrete, which is filled with aggregate. They're a good way to go if you ever plan to move a wall, though, and don't want to destroy your sill plate doing it. Me, I b'lieve I'll always go with adhesive plus powder nails for walls and anchor bolts for machines.

For the door(s)... you're talking about a walkout door to the outdoors? Definitely use exterior doors. They're thicker than interior doors, and it's difficult to get security locksets for the thinner interior doors. Exterior doors are also usually insulated & if they're glazed it's double-glazing instead of the single-glazing standard for interior doors. You can weatherstrip interior doors to seal as well, but I'd still go with exterior doors. You frame for double doors exactly as you would for single doors; leave an extra 1/2" all the way around the rough opening, but HAVE the door unit on hand BEFORE you frame for it. All door units are NOT manufactured alike. They're nearly all very similar, but there are sometimes crucial differences.

Ummm... holding strength? Not sure what ya mean there... ceilings?

Some places require 5/8" on ceilings, regardless of joist spacing. Some require 5/8" for 16" & 24" joist spacing, but 1/2" for 12" joist spacing, some require 5/8" only for 24" & up joist spacing, some places say 1/2" is fine for 24" spacing... and SOME places require TWO layers of 5/8".

A lot of the justification for 5/8" is less tendency to sag between joists, but most of it (whether people realize it or not) is for fire suppression. Drywall's fast & easy to put up & make "pretty", but its real best value is the fact that it absorbs water & holds it. In the event of a fire, that water has to boil away before the sheetrock will transmit any temperatures higher than 212F (100C), which means the wood on the other side of the sheetrock is spared any damage until then... and the thicker the sheetrock the longer the boil time. By the time the water's boiled out of the sheetrock, the fire MAY have died down, meaning it's contained within the room where it started.

As far as sag resistance... I've seen lots of fifty-year-old sheetrock hung 24" on center, and yet not sagging appreciably. In wetter climates, that may not hold true.

I think I'll cast my lot towards 1/2" for walls (regardless of stud spacing) and (lacking a local ordinance or guideline) 5/8" for ceilings (regardless of joist spacing). I used 1/2" for ceilings in this house (and the last two) 'cause I'm not really very worried about fire.

[sawduster]

Other than between garage and house, I don't recollect ever hanging 5/8" rock in a residential setting, but my experience was over 35 years ago. Since you mentioned in the other thread that you were gonna run your electrical above the ceiling, I recommend again you go with a suspended ceiling. Twelve rows of cinder blocks should give you 8 feet and maybe a couple inches from floor to your "ceiling" joists and you could probably afford to lose a couple inches for suspending the ceiling. That stuff gives you a bit more sound insulation than sheet rock.

If you're talking about 5/8 + 1/2 rock on the walls to give you more grab for hanging stuff on the walls, I would say it wouldn't give you much, if any additional grab. Anything that can't be held up with those plastic or metal screw in anchors will likely need to be bolted to wood to stay up.

I agree with Timmer on gluing and nailing the sill plate down if for no other reason than to get a chance to play with one of those bammer things I mentioned in the other post. What the heck are those called. CjR had one that he some jamming problems with a while back, but darn, those things are fun!!!

[lexrex]

Yep, I was thinking thicker rock = better holding power for a screw. I'll be using the big anchors where I don't have a stud. They used 5/8 in the house for outside walls only, I don't remember why.

Insulation, I am mainly worried about sound proofing. I probably don't need it on exterior walls...is that correct? Might help me retain some warmth I suppose. I DO need it on the ceiling and on two walls where I have adjoining rooms. I need to cut down on the noise. I am also considering the framing channel route to reduce noise going upstairs.

Doors: they will open inside to an unfinished part of the basement used for storage/play. This other area could be finished in the future as needed. I want to keep the dust out of that space and the doors closed until the dust settles. Not sure what type of doors to use or just simply weather strip some interior doors.

Pex: my whole house is Pex, I guess we shall find out about your claims in about 10 years I only have a very short run of supply, maybe 10 feet over the ceiling and 7 feet down the wall.

Moisture: We have both interior and exterior drain tiles. I don't have any moisture right now but I'm worried about the future. It's a brand new house, I'm worried something will eventually crack and leak...

I will definitely be picking up a powder nailer.

HVAC: Tim you make a good point. I may leave it alone and in the dead of winter use a small heater if I need a bit of warmth. Even right now, it's not bad down there. Above 60 that's for sure. I will take a temp reading this week. It should be plenty cool in the dog days of summer.

[TDHofstetter]

Heck, if it's above 60 I'd leave it alone - definitely no insulation on the exterior walls; if you want some there, it really belongs on the outside instead of the inside; that way the basement walls continue to be part of the house's thermal inertia. Too, if you insulate basement walls too well on the inside, frost will form in the soil immediately outside those walls & push the walls inward, forming cracks that you don't want.

If the doors just separate two sections of the basement from each other, interior doors will work just fine for the purpose - you can install weatherstrip & sweeps just fine on 'em.

[imahic]

1/2 inch sheetrock should be fine. Not sure about your area but here 5/8 is required on outside walls for commercial bldg. for fire resistance I think. If you are going to be hanging the rock by yourself, look into renting a sheetrock jack. It makes hanging sheetrock a WHOLE lot easier. You just slide the sheet on top, crank it up to the ceiling, and you can take your sweet time getting those drywall screws in. No strain on your rigging except for lifting the sheets up on the jack. And 1/2 inch will be a lot lighter to lift overhead than 5/8 will be. Jerry has a good idea for the suspended ceiling. When we built our deli, I hung a suspended ceiling in it and it's not that hard. Course I had a friend who is a contractor show me how to get started also. But after I found out it was really pretty easy to do. By powder nailer I assume you are talking about the ones that use a 22 cal shot to drive the nail. You can pick one up pretty cheap that you load the nail and the charge and then hit it with your hammer. They are not that expensive. As someone once said, a man can't have too many tools.... ;D

Mike

[CajunRider]

Since the scale is very much doable. I say do a sketchup of the entire thing. You can go down to stud level and know exactly how many studs you need.

This way we can help your build it virtually ;D

[Jim Brown]

I'm glad to see this thread since I'm making a lot of the same decisions. One question, Tim, about the foil faced foam board ... is it as flammable as it looks?

[Mark T]

I'll leave most of your inquiries for the experts. However, as far as walls go, I would consider 7/16" OSB or 1/2" Plywood for the walls. If you want to make them "pretty", then you can slap up some 3/8" drywall and finish it off. I like the OSB (I covered mine with sheetrock for pretty) simply because I NEVER have to worry about holding power. I can stick a screw or nail anywhere and rest assured that it won't come out.

Really nice if you remodel or don't know exactly where you might need backing for heavy stuff on the walls.

Just an idea... one that has worked well for me.

[TDHofstetter]

Jan 14, 2010 8:44:28 GMT -6 Jim Brown said:

I'm glad to see this thread since I'm making a lot of the same decisions. One question, Tim, about the foil faced foam board ... is it as flammable as it looks?

It's actually pretty good - it doesn't take flame readily, and it doesn't hold it well. It does HOLD it, but only barely. It's not "fire protection" as shipped, although I'm not sure how much moisture it takes on in service; it may take on enough to be self-extinguishing.

Now I may grab up a scrap of it, since I've been using it throughout the house, and experiment a li'l.

[sawduster]

Jan 14, 2010 9:18:14 GMT -6 Mark T said:

I'll leave most of your inquiries for the experts. However, as far as walls go, I would consider 7/16" OSB or 1/2" Plywood for the walls. If you want to make them "pretty", then you can slap up some 3/8" drywall and finish it off. I like the OSB (I covered mine with sheetrock for pretty) simply because I NEVER have to worry about holding power. I can stick a screw or nail anywhere and rest assured that it won't come out.

Really nice if you remodel or don't know exactly where you might need backing for heavy stuff on the walls.

Just an idea... one that has worked well for me.

OSB has a tendency to blow out on the back side when driving nails through it, so I'd recommend the use of screws for anything really heavy. Ply will wallow out with nails, so again I'd recommend screws. Besides that, it may violate code to use flammable wood products as sheathing on interior walls. Don't know that putting sheet rock over it would solve the code issue. Like Tim mentioned either in this thread or another, sheet rock is fire retardant, and having a wood product coating walls with electrical wiring subject to shorting and fire starting might be counter productive to the fire retarding sheet rock.

Really heavy stuff needs anchoring with lag bolts or big screws to the wall studs even if you are using OSB or ply.

[Jim Brown]

Now I may grab up a scrap of it, since I've been using it throughout the house, and experiment a li'l.

Not, I hope, on anything that's already been installed!

I need to work on some noise suppression ... the basement is LOUD. Of course, we've been jackhammering through the concrete down there, installing a sump ...

[lexrex]

I've been doing some reading and what Jerry suggested about a suspended ceiling, when combined with fiberglass above it, is probably the best sound barrier you'll get without getting into some money. And the added bonus of being able to add electrical without major damage.