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[TDHofstetter]

I had tried to post to this one again, but I got up to smoke a cigarette & my chair swung around (the floor's not perfectly level) and tipped over my beer... and when I got back, everyything I ytyped looked (yto one defgree or anoyther) a wghole loyt like ytghis). Plus, on random keystrokes, the page refreshed...

Yeah, no. Annealing - if it's done right once - is DONE and no additional annealing passes will enhance the anneal. Likewise, tempering - if it's done right once - is DONE and no additional tempering passes will make it any better. It's best to start with dead-soft steel, shape it, harden it, temper it, and leave it alone forevermore unless it wants shaping again. If ya gotta' start with already-hardened steel (as in the case if you're reclaiming a handsaw, a leaf spring, like that), anneal it once to shape it, then harden & temper just the once.

There's nothing, really, to gain by repeating the process. If you know what alloy the steel is, a standard hardening WILL give it a known Rockwell hardness, and a standard tempering WILL give it a known Rockwell hardness and a known toughness, all predictably. If you need different hardness or other characteristic, you select a different alloy. If you start with an unknown alloy, it'll still harden & temper predictably, same way every time. And... a one-time thorough annealing will always make it as soft as ordinary mild steel or wringing iron (which is a world different from cast iron).

If there's concern about burning the steel in the annealing or tempering processes, you can anneal (in a kiln or gas forge) with the workpiece surrounded by Casenit powder, wrapped in stainless-steel foil. Casenit is finely-divided carbon powder, and it's used extensively for case-hardening. If it's used needlessly on tool steel, it will case-harden that tool steel even further, resulting in great hardness but unpredictable tempering properties and a tendency to crack on cooling. It's neat stuff for just putting a hardened skin on soft mild steel, though - it's used throughout the gun industry for things like hammers and triggers where the object itself needs to be as tough as possible but also highly wear-resistant.

You can also temper with Casenit the same way, in an oven, during which time it won't add any hardness at all because during tempering the steel never gets hot enough (the "magic point") to dissolve carbon. If you're using a gas (natural or propane) oven to do the tempering, its interior is already flooded with carbon dioxide and so there's little tendency to burn the steel there. Most of the same goes for using a propane torch, provided you do the annealing or hardening in a windless (in the shop) environment - the primary byproduct of propane combustion is carbon dioxide; the flame consumes nearly all available "free" oxygen and protects the steel's carbon to a degree. The greatest danger of burning steel exists in an electric kiln.

[RiverWalker]

so much to consider for!

lol, it sounds like my dads aluminum melting furnace might be a very bad idea, as it functions with a blower and propane and such... sounds like too much air possibly available.

lots of interesting info all and all. I look forward to being able to put some of it to use eventually.

[TDHofstetter]

I think the furnace/smelter's biggest drawbacks are that it's not predictable (but is probably overkill) for hardening and it's vast overkill for tempering. I've got a feeling the blower's just to feed the fire, not to blow across the metal (it'd make it HARD to smelt aluminum otherwise).

It really doesn't take very much to do this stuff - just a quiet place & a torch & a little corn can fulla' either water or oil (depending on whether the steel's W1 or O1 - you do NOT want to work D2 or A1!). W1, unless it's dead annealed, is always a little harder than O1. O1 has less tendency to distort on heating, so it's used for critical work that's gotta' stay extremely accurate. A1 and D2 are both air-quenched, but they're special alloys and you can't get 'em hot enough to reach "magic" without using a special kiln for the purpose... plus those two're nearly always shipped hard so ya can't anneal 'em to work 'em.

W1 & O1, though... those are super-simple to work with; I'd encourage any of us to try their hand at makin' some sorta' cutting tool with either of 'em (I use W1 a lot more than O1).

[RiverWalker]

May 24, 2010 14:25:39 GMT -6 TDHofstetter said:

I think the furnace/smelter's biggest drawbacks are that it's not predictable (but is probably overkill) for hardening and it's vast overkill for tempering. I've got a feeling the blower's just to feed the fire, not to blow across the metal (it'd make it HARD to smelt aluminum otherwise).

It really doesn't take very much to do this stuff - just a quiet place & a torch & a little corn can fulla' either water or oil (depending on whether the steel's W1 or O1 - you do NOT want to work D2 or A1!). W1, unless it's dead annealed, is always a little harder than O1. O1 has less tendency to distort on heating, so it's used for critical work that's gotta' stay extremely accurate. A1 and D2 are both air-quenched, but they're special alloys and you can't get 'em hot enough to reach "magic" without using a special kiln for the purpose... plus those two're nearly always shipped hard so ya can't anneal 'em to work 'em.

W1 & O1, though... those are super-simple to work with; I'd encourage any of us to try their hand at makin' some sorta' cutting tool with either of 'em (I use W1 a lot more than O1).

yeah, I don't remember all the mechanics of it. I just remember that it was real slick for melting aluminum, and a pain in the butt to move around, even with the heaviest parts separating into several pieces.

I seriously do hope to be able to try some of it sooner than later, maybe something small like a marking knife or something of that effect, would be small and easy enough to start with, without a huge cost, while still getting experience with the general idea.

[TDHofstetter]

BTW... I think in another post I asked whether your father's lathe was the "Kittery" design... while I was planing tonight, it came to me that it wasn't "Kittery", it was "Gingery".

[sawduster]

May 24, 2010 20:26:35 GMT -6 TDHofstetter said:

BTW... I think in another post I asked whether your father's lathe was the "Kittery" design... while I was planing tonight, it came to me that it wasn't "Kittery", it was "Gingery".

Now, how the heck could you confuse a cat with a spice?

[RiverWalker]

BTW... I think in another post I asked whether your father's lathe was the "Kittery" design... while I was planing tonight, it came to me that it wasn't "Kittery", it was "Gingery".

I have absolutely no idea, I remember that it was from some series of magazines, with a very long(epic, even) series of projects that started with building the furnace to recycle aluminum cans into castable metal, and using that with sand casting to make some of the parts for the lathe, constructing a very rudimentary lathe, then using the rudimentary lathe to actually manufacture the parts to make itself more sophisticated, like the stepped pulley wheels, faceplate, knobs, ect.
I believe the overall project extended to later using the finished lathe to make the parts for a rudimentary milling machine, which you then use in conjunction with the lathe to make parts to finish making a full function milling machine, which can then further improve the lathe as well.

it was a pretty spiffy concept really. and as far as he got (I do think he fully finished the lathe) it seemed to work pretty well. it wasn't a real huge lathe, but it was pretty nice overall.

[TDHofstetter]

Many times I've been sorely tempted to do that, and still am... not for the lack of either machine (I've got a 1909 9x20" lathe, a (new, chinese) 7x12 minilathe, a big 9x42 knee mill, and a mill-drill. It's more for the experience of having DONE it, from the ground up.

[tw]

Hera are some pictures of some tools I have made:











Turning tools and planes and a big crosscut cirkular saw for firewood. The saw still lacks some electrical components. All the metalwork is made from scrap.

Feel free to ask questions.

[sawduster]

After watching the video of the old guy running that huge cross cut saw, I definitely like the idea of that trough. Ought to help keep the log being chopped in place and keep it from spinning. Appears that your design is more like a miter or chop saw instead of a table saw like in the video.

[JBark]

Just wanted to jump in and mention the possibility of finding old blades and making planes to fit them. I pick up any blade I find, including a lot of good thick ones, and give it a good look over and have bought a few. I am in a good flea market area so it is very easy to find this sort of stuff.

RW, don't forget about the rest of the web. There is a ton and a half of good plane making info out there (norsewoodsmith.com?) as well as a couple of good books. Infill planes are pretty popular and are well within the talents of most people. Its a sloppy dovetail that tightens when you whack it...what more can ask for.

Good luck

[RiverWalker]

May 29, 2010 14:17:35 GMT -6 JBark said:

Just wanted to jump in and mention the possibility of finding old blades and making planes to fit them. I pick up any blade I find, including a lot of good thick ones, and give it a good look over and have bought a few. I am in a good flea market area so it is very easy to find this sort of stuff.

RW, don't forget about the rest of the web. There is a ton and a half of good plane making info out there (norsewoodsmith.com?) as well as a couple of good books. Infill planes are pretty popular and are well within the talents of most people. Its a sloppy dovetail that tightens when you whack it...what more can ask for.

Good luck

thanks, I'm keeping that sort of idea in mind too, in a week or two going to be going to a large flea market and might have some luck.

TW: its definitely encouraging that I'm not alone in my finding the idea of making tools like that to be an interesting thing to aim for. it seems like it could be a good, neat way to get things done.

can regular chisels be made from flat stock, like does even a spike-style handle attachment require fancy blacksmithingyness(as opposed to merely cutting/grinding and heat treating) to make it work right? or are they tricky to make in other ways?

[TDHofstetter]

By "regular" chisels, d'you mean woodworking chisels? Like... bevel-edge chisels or firmer chisels? Not cold chisels or... well, there are lots of different kinds of chisels, but since this is a woodworking forum I'll assume bevel-edge or firmer chisels.

Yep, they're decently made from flat water-hardening or oil-hardening tool steel. The tangs (I assume from "spike-style handle attachment" can be either ground or filed to shape (I keep reading about a fella who build a bunch of guns and assorted machines through the exclusive use of hand files - he'd look at a part and figure it'd take about ten thousand strokes of a file to make it, then think to himself "it ain't gonna' get done if I don't start", and shoop shoop shoop off'd come the steel) while they're in the annealed state. The tangs should always be LEFT ANNEALED so they're as tough as they can possibly be. That way they won't ever break off. Only the "business end" should be hardened, and not very much OF the business end really needs hardening. You'll know when you've sharpened past the hardened part, and at that point you can reharden another half-inch or so.

[RiverWalker]

May 30, 2010 7:19:32 GMT -6 TDHofstetter said:

By "regular" chisels, d'you mean woodworking chisels? Like... bevel-edge chisels or firmer chisels? Not cold chisels or... well, there are lots of different kinds of chisels, but since this is a woodworking forum I'll assume bevel-edge or firmer chisels.

Yep, they're decently made from flat water-hardening or oil-hardening tool steel. The tangs (I assume from "spike-style handle attachment" can be either ground or filed to shape (I keep reading about a fella who build a bunch of guns and assorted machines through the exclusive use of hand files - he'd look at a part and figure it'd take about ten thousand strokes of a file to make it, then think to himself "it ain't gonna' get done if I don't start", and shoop shoop shoop off'd come the steel) while they're in the annealed state. The tangs should always be LEFT ANNEALED so they're as tough as they can possibly be. That way they won't ever break off. Only the "business end" should be hardened, and not very much OF the business end really needs hardening. You'll know when you've sharpened past the hardened part, and at that point you can reharden another half-inch or so.

yeah, thats what I meant, lol, I was great on the terms last night. I know the term, really... I just... couldn't remember the word at the time.. heh

I'll have to keep an eye out on craigslist and such to see if I can find a grinder.

[JBark]

I've got a book on metalworking techniques that shows how to make different tangs for woodworking chisels. I'll dig it up later and post it. Chances are you can find it cheap online.

[tw]

Good chisels are normally thinner towards the tip.
Maybe you should build a portable forge out of a brake drum and learn proper blacksmithing.
If you can find an old horse drawn hay rake the pins are made from high quality "cast steel". The best you can get.

I am decending that slippery slope myself too. I have resurfaced a worn out anvil with hard electrodes and the forge is awaiting som electrical work before it is finished.

[JBark]

I found the book I mentioned; Practical Blacksmithing and Metalworking by Percy Blandford. It is a real general knowledge book but you could get a few good pointers from it, it shows how to make a chisels tang and shoulder. You could probably pick this and similar books on any used book site on the web for a few dollars.

[Ruffnek]

Here's the site I use to find books of just about any condition, from new to well used. I've gotten some great deals here and generally have found the books condition to be exactly as advertised.

www.bookfinder.com/