my wood has warped

[elizabeth]

Hi, guys.

Jerry, Cody: Thank you for replying in the other forum. I copy the thread on this one hoping to get some more suggestions.

Subject: "Clamping to un-wrap milled pieces?" Conferences I'm New to Woodworking and... Topic #7637
Reading Topic #7637

Elizabeth
Member since Aug-14-07
233 posts Nov-05-09, 01:17 PM (EST)

"Clamping to un-wrap milled pieces?"

I thought the wood I've milled was stable (the blood wood). It isn't. I quote Tim below from the last thread on the subject.
"Also, I don't think the problems you're seeing are related so much to moisture content as to reaction wood; some pieces of wood have so much internal tension that they simply cannot be milled flat nor square, ever. Could I get ya to try another piece?

-- Tim --"

All the pieces of my box are cut and ready for finishing, with the exception of running a grove along their length to accommodate a divider. In checking the joints and slides for ease of movement I discovered they no longer fit. My wood has warped and nothing is going in it's place.

I've clamped the pieces back for back in the hopes of straightening them. Will it work or do I have to to the relief riping you all suggested. I'm trying not to have to do that because I've matched the box on three corners and all the joints and slides have been cut. I no longer can rip and change grain orientation.

Is there anything else I can do? I really want to get this done by X-mas and I've been working at it for five months now.

Thanks,

Elizabeth
one step forward two back


Sawduster
Member since Sep-2-04
16660 posts Nov-05-09, 01:32 PM (EST)

1. "RE: Clamping to un-wrap milled pieces?"
In response to message #0

I doubt very seriously if that clamping is gonna straighten out the warped wood.
Jerry

Cody Colston
Member since Apr-9-03
7808 posts Nov-05-09, 02:14 PM (EST)

2. "RE: Clamping to un-wrap milled pieces?"
In response to message #0

LAST EDITED ON Nov-05-09 AT 02:16 PM (EST)

Elizabeth,
All wood moves, even kiln dried non-reaction wood. The longer the period between milling the pieces and assembly, the more opportunity the wood has to move.

Now, it could certainly be that you have some reaction wood but I really doubt it. I think the wood movement is more likely due to the transfer of moisture after it was milled. Lots of folks will rough dimension to about 1/16 - 1/8 oversize, let the wood acclimate and then final dimension to desired width and thickness to help control warping.

If the warping is not too severe, you can probably straighten the boards on a jointer, planer or sander...even with a hand plane...and have them remain stable long enough for assembly. Whether performing the initial milling or doing remedial milling to straighten a warped board, it's always a good idea to remove equal material from both sides to keep the board in balance. Not doing this initially could also have led to the warping.

If they are warped so badly that removing the warp will make the pieces too thin, then you will have to start over with different wood.

Once a board warps, it's unlikely that clamping will straighten it out.

Cody
Tyler, TX

My workpieces are already cut. I can't plane or joint. I have lock mitered the ends and cut the DOV slides that fit precisely into the main box. Would photos of what I'm making show my problem better? Everything was fitting just fine until I started sluffing off the wood I didn't need and sanding the inside. This is a puzzle box. It isn't meant to be glued. It's meant to be opened.

Tim had mentioned boiling the wood to dry it. Should I do that now (or try the denatured alcohol) and clamp the wood flat?

If you need pictures I can do that but there will be many to show all the movements this box has to go through in order to be opened. How large a file can I upload?

Thanks guys. I really need your help in making this work! I'm in despair!!!!!

[Beamer]

Bloodwood is terrible for this ... it warps if you cough in the next town over from it.

As much as I'd like to give you reassurance, I doubt there's much you can do besides makin' 'em thinner and even that's a gamble. With bloodwood, or any other woods that love to move (most of the fruit woods), the best thing you can do is mill it and get it glued and clamped into it's final resting place within 24 hours. That is, if its final resting place is suitable for that job.

Sometimes there are just jobs that certain boards can't do. Drawer sides and other tight-fit stuff needs to be really stable and you've just discovered how bloodwood ain't. Quartersawn may be pretty stable, but flat or rift will warp all over the hills if you sneeze in the same county.

I never like to give discouraging words to anyone but I can't sugar coat this one. They're gonna stay warped, I'm afraid.

The only reversable warp I know of is caused by poor storage. Like laying a stack of panels on top of each other for a week - they'll warp, no matter what. You effectively seal of one face and the other's gonna move differently than it and you'll get warp. And that's not accounting for any desire to move those boards have already built-in.

If it wants to move, it will, and there ain't nothin' we humans can chant that'll stop it, sadly. It's almost a right of passage for a woodworker. There are those who've lost a part to warpage and those who will one day.

Sucks ... wish I could offer more encouraging advice

[TDHofstetter]

Pics would help - they nearly always seem to - but given what we know how, it sure SOUNDS like you're in a heckuva bind at the moment.

Here's what it SOUNDS like we're down to.

Where it doesn't fit... something will have gotten larger in some dimension or something will have gotten smaller in some dimension. It may be a little difficult to see exactly what, and in what dimension & direction, but one of those two things has happened. Measure the devil out of everything, in every possible direction, and determine what's larger or smaller than it's supposed to be.

Ok, now - when you've figured out what surface has shrunk (supposing shrinkage), try spritzing water (just a little) onto that surface - enough to moisten it a little. This is gonna' be really iffy, but it's possible. Let it sit for a while, testfit it & see if that moisture has caused it to grow a little again - it may have. If not, spritz a little more on the same surface & let it sit.

What we're shooting for here is expansion due to increased moisture content. We probably don't have good exclusive access to the ends of the shrunken fibers, so we're trying to push moisture into the shrunken surface through the side grain. It doesn't go easily that way, but it goes. Any sort of finish will slow it WAAAY down, so we may be fighting that if it's finished.

If we can get it to grow back into shape the way we want it, then as SOON as it's in the right shape again apply a finish of some sort to help "freeze" it that way. Anything - the more complete the seal, the better the chances of it working. Hardening oils, shellac, poly, wax, SOMETHING.

Now - on the other hand - if a surface has EXPANDED and is now LARGER than you expect... try setting the workpiece in the sun with that surface exposed to direct sunlight. That may shrink it back down again long enough for you to hit it with finish... again, anything - the better the seal the better the chances of saving that piece.

[elizabeth]

Thanks, guys. I have the pics. I've reduced them in size for an upload of 850KB. Is that too much?

[Joe Lyddon]

One thing you might try...

Use concrete wall building blocks: 4x8x16

On a flat surface lay you wood down...
Pile the blocks on top close together... all over the wood.
(with the holes facing upward)

Get the water hose and fill the holes with water...

Let the water soak... and eventually DRY OUT...

Hopefully, it should be better... don't know...

NO, BASED ON THE OTHER COMMENTS, IT PROBABLY WILL NOT WORK.

[elizabeth]

the closed box (unfinished):


The warp:





The sequence:

















The positive stops in the box proper:



Putting it back together:









The problems:

Warped wood:







I hope you can see these. The problem is fitting the pieces back together without breaking the joints. The wood is so brittle that I've already snapped the tongue in the lock miter joint on the two boxes under construction. In order to close this box I have to really manipulate the wood so I don't stress the joints. There is no "give" in it. My Father isn't going to do that. I don't know where best to relieve the pressure on the joints for ease of opening and closing.

Thanks!

[elizabeth]

Sorry guys, I thought the photos would show in the message proper instead of having to click on each link. Must have done it wrong!

[admin]

Liz, I've modified your post and put the pic links in the right tags for you. You can go back and click "quote" on that post to see what it looks like as it needs to be. When you're done you can just click your back button.

Beautiful work!

TJ.

[Joe Lyddon]

Liz,

Sure is pretty wood... beautiful JOINERY!!

I guess you have a sliding dovetail that is used to open the box... or something?
... must be exact or it won't 'slide'...

If you could brute-force glue & clamp it together & let the glue dry a long time before removing clamps...
(doesn't look like it's warped REAL bad... just a little)

Then trim the dovetail so it can slide as desired...

How is the sliding DT going to be used?

Is that a Puzzle box of some sort? Haven't seen anything like it!
Very Unique!
Do you have a Link to the project?

It's a shame to do all that beautiful work and have this happen!

[TDHofstetter]

Oh, MAN, 'Lizabeth - that's pretty!

It looks like that one end piece has twisted ("propellered"). That's a beggar to undo, I hate t'tell ya. You might get lucky in this case (if it's still unfinished) by wiping a streak of clear water from corner to diagonal corner on each face - opposite diagonals, so... lessee. Viewed from the OUTSIDE at the warped end, you'd want upper left to lower right, like "\". On the INSIDE of that same piece you'd want it to go the opposite direction. That'll help a little to reverse the propellering. Geez, it's SO close... and this is gonna' be SO delicate a fix, easy to overshoot. Experiment with that process, wiping with a moist cloth so you can see wetness on the surface, and see if you can get it to twist back the other direction. Once it gets there, lock it there with your choice of finish.

The corners you want to PULL should stay DRY, the corners you want to PUSH should get the moisture.

[lexrex]

Very nice box. What is really tough is that while you could probably get that twist out, you wouldn't be able to do it without reducing thickness and ruining your joinery.

I wonder if you couldn't make a very thin wedge and glue it in the crack, then finish up with a block plane to square off your corners. Perhaps you could build a small sled for your planer that would give you a very fine wedge shape. I haven't done this but it's just an idea.

Of course, last time I gave you an idea (PALS) you were ready to have my head afterwards

[elizabeth]

Hey, Chris: PALS is great once installed. I couldn't have cut my workpieces as precisely as needed for this box without having the TBS calibrated like you all explained it needed.

As to the box:
Thank you for the replies. Yes, I am SO DARNED CLOSE it's infuriating!!!!!!!!!!!!!

As you can see in the pics, the wood has twisted in those corners so the lock-miter joint no longer bottoms out. This creates the problem in sliding the "key" in place. The "key" is the dovetail slide that not only locks itself by the corner joints, but locks the box to all four sides.

Having slept through the issue, and after reading your suggestions and comments this is what I propose to do:

• finish the box as planned.
  
• assemble it.
  
• soak it, assembled, in denatured alcohol.
  
• let it dry and immediately apply the first coat of oil.
  
• sticker it as it cures with as much weight as I can put on it.
  
• go through all the sanding, polishing, oiling,etc. repeating the stickering between applications.
  

If this doesn't untwist my workpiece, in addition to shooting myself , I'll run those particular corners again with the lock-miter bit. If it were only an ascetic blemish I wouldn't be so upset.

What do you think of this proposal? This box is as much your creation as mine. It's the culmination of all your instructions over the past two years. I can't thank you enough but please help me birth it!

[TDHofstetter]

That's certainly worth a try as planned, 'Lizabeth. If worst comes to worst, you could also remake any individual part that simply refuses to cooperate, keeping the rest intact. It'd take very careful setup to duplicate it, but that'd be made easier by having the original to use as a model.

[elizabeth]

yeah. Duplicating will be a bear because the wood has to be precisely dimensioned in order to use the lock miter bit at the same height and depth as the other pieces. Also, if I have to do this I will no longer have the three corner match I so diligently worked on.

I'll let you guys know how it's coming.
Thanks again